Ferdinand - '85 Bronco 351W XLT "Phoenix" rebuild project...

[Ferdinand]

Here is the first hiccup:



And here is where I am stuck at this point...



Not real sure what is going on just yet, but the carb is the one that caught fire. I did a very thorough inspection and then rebuilt it. And the distributor is a Cardone select from Rock auto. I am going to try and do some tuning tomorrow because I sure don't want to have to get a new carb and distributor!! (the new distributor has some play back and forth where the housing clips  to the aluminum base.) That seems bad... I'm thinking that will certainly effect the timing, but I am not sure.

And the heater core hoses are getting re-routed tomorrow. I don't know why I thought that would mess something up if I switched them. However, I checked my teardown photos from last December and the hoses were backward then... 🙃

[Gary Lewis]

It sounds like timing.  Like maybe way too much advance.  Maybe the dizzy turned?  The exhaust sounds really sharp.  Perhaps it is because it is in a garage, but it doesn't sound quite right.

[Ferdinand]

Thanks for that tip Gary. I had been meaning to ask you about that. I have noticed a few others have done that I just hadn't figured it out yet. (And for as long as it took me to figure out "width=100%" I wasn't in a hurry 🤣)

[Ferdinand]

Yes sir. The headers only and garage to amplify makes it hard to hear much else...

I marked the distributor before I pulled it, and it seemed to go right back in place but you are right. That is where I am starting tomorrow evening. Checking the timing. Although, if I got the distributor back in a tooth off I won't be at #1 & TDC anymore right? If that is the case, I am going to have to find someone with a TDC tool. I've seen a few make-shift ways to try and determine, but I'd rather know definitively.  

Any thoughts on how it ran on the start up but now it won't stay running? Seems like if it were the timing, it would have fought me from the start. 🤔

Two or three attempted start-ups landed me volleyball sized fireballs 😳

I want to say that I set my initial base timing at 10 degrees BTDC.

Either way, I am just so glad to have it running again!!
 (And no leaks so far... 🤞🏼🤞🏼🤞🏼)

[Ferdinand]

Oh, and this is rich...

Once I put the phenolic carb spacer on the stock air cleaner doesn't fit 😣

I am not sure how much taller the Airgap intake is over the stock intake. I guess I should have measured that.
I had a similar setup on my '82 F150 with no troubles, but I forgot I had put a 3" body lift on that. That gave me plenty under-hood space.

I even bought new accordion hose for the fresh air intake. Grrrrr.

[grumpin]

Ferdinand wrote

 I am going to have to find someone with a TDC tool. I've seen a few make-shift ways to try and determine, but I'd rather know definitively.  

I'd get on the compression stroke on number one then go to the TDC mark. If that isn't #1 TDC then you have another problem!

[Gary Lewis]

Good question about why it started well initially and then fought you later.  And I'm going to guess that it has to do with a cold engine vs a warm engine.  More compression and more friction warm, so it turns more slowly.  But just a guess.

And, did the choke come off when it warmed up?

As for the sound, the headers and in a garage would explain the staccato sound.

On the dizzy, if it went back off a tooth it'll probably mean that you are so far out of time that you can't rotate the dizzy far enough to bring it back in time.  Usually there's a narrow window of rotation before something hits.  But if you can get it in time it doesn't matter where the gear is.

And, it is a bummer about the spacer.  But the Air Gap must be tall.

Anyway, IT LIVES!  And that is always a wonderful feeling.  

[Steve83]

Ferdinand wrote

...I am going to have to find someone with a TDC tool.

I've never used or heard of a tool for that, with all the engines I've rebuilt & distributors I've stabbed.  The bottom of this caption explains how to stab it:

Ferdinand wrote

Any thoughts on how it ran on the start up but now it won't stay running?

If the lifters are hydraulic, they've pumped up now, so the valves might not be closing fully.  My ISP is too crappy to watch the videos, so I can't actually see the symptoms.

[Ferdinand]

Steve,

Thanks a million for that thread. That was really helpful! I am going to check it later tonight. I am also wondering if I have a fuel delivery problem...

New tank, sending unit, hard and soft lines, mech. fuel pump and filter so I am not thinking there should be a sediment or restriction problem, but I am a bit sketchy on the carb. I guess I just have trouble trusting my work when it was the first carb rebuild I have ever done. It didn't seem to difficult, just lots of steps but I labeled everything carefully and did the full rebuild after soaking it for a while. Carefully adjusted the floats and was careful not to burr anything when I put it all back together. Plus it ran rather well (had plenty of fine tuning left to do, but it ran consistently).

I am anxious to test it out again tonight. I haven't wired up the choke yet, but I didn't have it wired then either and I am currently heating the garage to around 65-70 so I'm not thinking the choke would be that critical.

I am trying to keep things as simple as possible so as I add things, I am hoping it will be easy to diagnose if there is a problem. Most of what melted or burned away isn't going back on and everything else is virtually new, so I hoping I am about through with my "issues" 😉

[FuzzFace2]

Ok if it was advanced to far then on restart it would have kicked back maybe even on first start.
To me it sounded like it was not firing on all cly.?

You can try and giving it a little advance and try and start it again to see what happens. It may work but I dont know?
Now if it starts and still sounds the same don't run it too long to get the exh. manifolds hot.
I would say only long enough to tell if it sounds better or not and I will tell you why.

Here is why, motor off feel the manifolds at each port close to the head. If that cly. is firing it will be warm / hot, if not firing it will be cool / cold. Again you don't want to run it too long or this will not work.

Once you know if they are all firing that is good and we have to look else where for the reason it runs poorly. My guess you will find acly. or 2 not firing and if so recheck firing order as I think you have 2 wires crossed.
Dave ----

[Steve83]

FuzzFace2 wrote

...feel the manifolds at each port close to the head.

Maybe spend a few bucks on an IR thermometer.  

[FuzzFace2]

Steve83 wrote

FuzzFace2 wrote

...feel the manifolds at each port close to the head.

Maybe spend a few bucks on an IR thermometer.

You take all the fun out of it
Could also use water and crayon but you would have go find them & the IR therm.
Dave ----

[Ferdinand]

Ok. So you guys are full of helpful ideas! I’m going to go ahead and try to start up cold again this morning and if I can’t get it running I will try to advance the timing a little bit. I do have an IR thermometer that I shot the block and header tubes with before I did the cam break-in. I’ll let you know how it goes!

[Ferdinand]

Progress so far today / 01.01.2019

HAPPY NEW YEAR EVERYONE‼️

Cold starts before any adjustments:



After backing the distributor to 10 degrees BTDC:



When I checked the timing it had drifted back to around 20-25 BTDC.

I still have to hold the pedal to the floor to start it but I'm thinking that might be carb adjustments. I haven't done anything to the carb but bolt it on. Going to try and tune it, bleed the brakes, and bolt the front driveshaft up and see if I can get it down the driveway today.

[Ferdinand]

Ok, so I am having the dickens of a time getting this thing to stay at the proper timing... but he did make his maiden voyage today!!




I have noticed (after I bought a new one since the last one got a BIG DRINK and I thought it was toast) that my new alternator isn't charging... I am starting down that path and I am spending some time in the EVTM. Hopefully I can figure out what is happening.

I do have a question though on something I have not been able to identify.
Is this some sort of voltage regulator???



I'm wondering if this could be preventing the alternator from charging?

[Gary Lewis]

Well, congratulations on the maiden voyage!!!  That's great.  

As for the regulator, yes that is one.  And w/o it working properly your alternator won't work.  So, if you know your alternator is good then replace the regulator.  If not, have the alternator tested and then replace the regulator.

[Ferdinand]

Ok, great! Thanks Gary!

That at least gives me a place to start. I've checked everything else I know to check, so I am hoping this will be the ticket.

I figured out the hard start issue. I have some videos to post later about it. (I would have had them loaded last night but my laptop died and my charger was at my office 🙃)

My timing had drifted way off and I am still working on getting it to stay put. Since I am trying to find initial timing and base carb tuning at the same time, I finally decided to push the truck up to about 1500-1600 RPM and set timing there. If I understand correctly, that should at least take the idle mixture screw settings out of the loop. At that RMP I set the timing to 15 degrees BTDC and man did it smooth out! I backed the throttle down to about 1100 and man did it start easy with just a bump of the key. It also quit stalling as soon as I would put it in gear.

It was short lived though... I got it right where I wanted it last night (around 10p) so as a married man of 20 years, I know better than to push my luck since our bedroom is only one room away from the garage, and I decided to come down today and take a test drive on my lunch break. I could hardly wait!

It did much better than yesterday, but it still started running really rough again and started stalling as soon as I would put it in gear. So, I am not out of the woods yet, but I can't do any tuning tonight. It's a bit too late to make so much noise with a house of 5 women all having to get up early tomorrow

(1st day back to school from Christmas break)

PS, I'm picking up a VR tomorrow! Thanks again!

[Gary Lewis]

One layer at a time, and pretty soon you'll have a Bloomin' Onion or an ogre.  Not sure which.  

Did you ever get the choke hooked up?  You need the choke to back off as the engine gets warm or you'll have problems.

As for the timing drifting, it sounds like your clamp isn't.  Perhaps you have the wrong bolt in it and it is bottoming out w/o clamping the dizzy down?

[Steve83]

Ferdinand wrote

...I am spending some time in the EVTM. Hopefully I can figure out what is happening.

This caption is probably easier to understand since it explains how the alt works, and how to force it ON, bypassing the regulator:



If the battery voltage jumps & then climbs slowly, the alt is charging it.  But it all depends on the connections from the battery terminals (BOTH of them) to the alternator (its positive charging post AND its case negative).

[Rembrant]

Ferdinand wrote

Ok, so I am having the dickens of a time getting this thing to stay at the proper timing... but he did make his maiden voyage today!!

Try disconnecting the vacuum advance, and then see if the initial timing stays put. When you pull the hose off the distributor, just put a screw in it so it doesn't turn into a vacuum leak.

When I installed my rebuilt engine, I didn't hook up the vacuum advance for about a week afterwards. I wanted to get everything else working properly first, and then get the vacuum advance dialed in after the fact.

If you vacuum advance canister is adjustable, you can take some of the sensitivity out of it.

Do you have a cheap vacuum gauge? You can check and see what/if any if being applied to the vacuum advance during idle.