Ferdinand - '85 Bronco 351W XLT "Phoenix" rebuild project...

[Ferdinand]

Morning guys.

I can't figure out how the guys are inserting a portion of text into their reply to be more specific when answering...

I can cut and paste I guess, but if there is an easy explanation, I'm all for it

And for what it's worth, I am sure praying this guy ends up as a bloomin' onion!! 🤣

[Ferdinand]

Steve,

I just read through your post in the linked info. Man I appreciate all time you must have invested in getting so much information onto that other site!

(I just wish now after reading the info in the Garagemahal and there on your post on super motors, I would have waited in purchasing my 1G, so I could have done a 3G upgrade!!

I am going to try and replace the voltage regulator first. I put a meter on the battery both off and when running. Thankfully it doesn't look like it has any parasitic drains which is awesome, but I get absolutely nothing but slow drain when running.

If I remember right I should see something in the neighborhood of 13+ volts if the alt is charging properly.

I'll keep you posted on any progress. Thanks again for the info!!

[Ferdinand]

Thanks Rembrant!

I had wondered about that. I hadn't connected ANY other vacuum to anything (except the vac adv.) trying to keep the start up as trouble free as possible. I thought I needed it.

I am going to try this tonight when I get home and I bet it will help stabilize a baseline at least.

I am getting closer to putting that front clip on!!!

Thanks for the tip!

[Gary Lewis]

Ferdinand wrote

Morning guys.

Morning!

Ferdinand wrote

I can't figure out how the guys are inserting a portion of text into their reply to be more specific when answering...

I can cut and paste I guess, but if there is an easy explanation, I'm all for it

You can hit the "Quote" button to the left, above.  In this case that gave me your statements, preceded by a "quote author="Ferdinand"" and followed by a "/quote", but of which are surrounded by "<" and ">" symbols.  (If I put those on you wouldn't see the things I put in quotes.)  Those put the "Ferdinand wrote" statements and the side bars on.

So I just copied the "quote author="Ferdinand"" and the "/quote" tags, including the "<" and ">", and put them ahead of and behind each separate statement so I could answer each one individually instead of all of them collectively.

Ferdinand wrote

And for what it's worth, I am sure praying this guy ends up as a bloomin' onion!! 🤣

  I hope so!

[Steve83]

Gary Lewis wrote

So I just copied the "quote author="Ferdinand"" and the "/quote" tags, including the "<" and ">", and put them ahead of and behind each separate statement...

I start by copying the "author" tag, and pasting it after the /quote tag.  Then I copy both of them (in backward order), and undo (CTRL+Z) to get rid of the last author tag.  I delete any leading & ending text I'm not replying to.  Then I select the in-between text I don't want quoted, and paste the tags in-place of that (usually beginning & ending with ellipses).  Repeat as many times as needed.  For multi-quotes, I copy what's left, back up, quote the next post, paste the first one at the beginning, and repeat the process.  Then I go back & type my responses between each pair of /quote & author tags.

[Ferdinand]

Running the engine tonight.

Can't figure out what the engine pops the say it does when stabbing the throttle. Seems to run way smoother if you just ease into it. (But who wants to do that )



Last running of the night. Still holding at about 15 - 18 degrees. (My balancer is really hard to read. I may look into a timing tape or something. Right now I just have paint marks on 0, 10, & 20 degrees BTDC) It still is able to get me rather close. Would the timing on these be that sensitive that I should get a timing tape to put on the balancer to be able to read EVERY degree?



Replaced the voltage regulator tonight. Didn't seem to help. What should a healthy reading be? I was thinking over 13volts, but for something that old and with a weaker alternator, will it be much less??? 🤔

[Gary Lewis]

Several things.  First, a bad regulator can kill an alternator, which can kill a regulator.  So you need to check the alternator.  In Steve's info there are instructions on how to test the alternator by giving it full "field".  If it works that way then either the new regulator is bad or you have a wiring problem.

As for a voltage, with the engine running and no draw it should be at about 14.4 volts.  But that is for a well-charged battery, so something a bit less but still around 14.0 volts would be expected if you've just started it.  However, anything higher than 12.8 volts says the alternator is working as that is the voltage for a fully-charged battery that isn't on charge, so higher than that means it is getting charged somehow.

And don't forget that a 1G alternator doesn't put out much current at idle.  So if the battery isn't fully charged and the engine is idling the voltage may be down around 13 volts.

Now, for the choke.  It is on in the first video and the engine is seemingly happy.  That means that the fuel/air mix is pretty lean and the choke is making up for it.  But perhaps things will be fine when the engine gets warm.  We shall see.

But, when you blip the throttle the choke is opening some, which is leaning out the mix.  And an engine doesn't want to accelerate when lean.  But, when you slowly increase the throttle it probably doesn't bump the choke open, so it will accelerate.

Given that, I'd not worry about it until you get further into the project.  With the choke wire hooked up as the engine (choke actually) warms up the choke will come off and then you can adjust the idle mix.  But while the choke is on you can't adjust the mix.

As for the timing, I don't think it is that sensitive.  For the moment I wouldn't worry about getting it exactly right as you can't when it isn't being driven.

[Steve83]

Ferdinand wrote

My balancer is really hard to read. I may look into a timing tape or something. Right now I just have paint marks on 0, 10, & 20 degrees BTDC

With the engine running, gently touch a wire brush to the balancer, applying progressively-more pressure until it's clean.  If you're not comfortable doing that, it just takes a little more time & elbow grease to brush it clean with the engine stopped, or the balancer off.  Then paint it black or Ford gray & let that dry.  Then wipe white paint into the embossments (especially the 10° mark & the pointer) so you can read them with a timing light.

Ferdinand wrote

Would the timing on these be that sensitive...?

It shouldn't be.

Ferdinand wrote

...read EVERY degree?

No, you can gauge single degrees by eye on a circle that diameter.  But the correct setting should have a mark embossed (usually larger than all the other marks).

Ferdinand wrote

Replaced the voltage regulator tonight. Didn't seem to help.

Did the original fail a test?  Did you check all the wires between the alt, regulator, & battery (including grounds)?  What did you replace it with (brand, PN, source)?

Ferdinand wrote

What should a healthy reading be? I was thinking over 13volts...

All lead-acid battery cells make 2.1VDC, and a nominal 12V battery has 6 cells, so that's 12.6V when fully-charged.  Charging voltage has to be slightly higher (to drive the chemical reaction into reverse); a fully-charged battery needs 12.9-14.5V to counteract its natural tendency to self-discharge (internally); a discharged battery might cause a voltage regulator to go above 15V (if the engineer who designed the regulator & alternator thought the battery he specified could handle that much voltage & current), but I wouldn't expect a typical 1G to get up to 15 under any conditions.

Ferdinand wrote

...for something that old and with a weaker alternator, will it be much less?

Always exactly the same, for all 12V vehicles of any age, make, or model, with any alternator (or alternatorS), or any brand/age/size/design of 12V battery (or any combination of lower-voltage batteries wired in series or parallel to make a nominal 12V total).

The only reason old vehicles typically have low voltage is neglect (poor maintenance).

Gary Lewis wrote

...a bit less but still around 14.0 volts would be expected if you've just started it.

The voltage regulator's target voltage will be HIGHER when battery voltage is lower; so higher just after starting, progressing lower as the battery takes the charge.

Gary Lewis wrote

...when you blip the throttle the choke is opening some...

If you've waited long enough for the cold engine to warm up before touching the throttle, the choke will open fully the first time the throttle lever screw comes away from the choke cam.

Gary Lewis wrote

But, when you slowly increase the throttle it probably doesn't bump the choke open, so it will accelerate.

The choke's bimetallic (thermostatic) spring tries to open the plate as it warms up, but if the throttle is resting against its cam, the choke cam can't move, so the choke plate can't, either.  Any time the throttle is moved, the choke will go to the position its spring is pushing it.  The throttle doesn't push the choke.

Gary Lewis wrote

With the choke wire hooked up as the engine (choke actually) warms up the choke will come off...

The choke can't come off while the throttle lever is resting against the choke cam.  That's why the throttle blip is necessary.

Gary Lewis wrote

...getting it exactly right as you can't when it isn't being driven.

The engine only needs to be warmed-up to set timing correctly - it doesn't have to be in a driveable vehicle.

[FuzzFace2]

Are you running 1 side of the motor open header?
It just does not sound right to me like a few wires are crossed.
And if it is popping out the carb & exh. that would be it.
What firing order you going by? 302 / 351 or 351HO as I seen it posted they use different firing orders.

I take it you don't have a dial back timing light?
If you did you would not need a timing tape or all the paint marks to see on the crank.
Dave ----

[Steve83]

FuzzFace2 wrote

...a dial back timing light?
If you did you would not need a timing tape or all the paint marks to see on the crank.

Yes, you still have to start at 0°, so you need SOME marks.  IMO, it's always easier (even though I have a good Snap-On advance timing light) to read the factory mark on the balancer at the factory time.

[FuzzFace2]

Steve83 wrote

FuzzFace2 wrote

...a dial back timing light?
If you did you would not need a timing tape or all the paint marks to see on the crank.

Yes, you still have to start at 0°, so you need SOME marks.  IMO, it's always easier (even though I have a good Snap-On advance timing light) to read the factory mark on the balancer at the factory time.

I had a good SnapOn light also up till about 2 months ago.
I had some tools grow legs and walk out and that was one of them.
I would just mark TDC and the balancer and use the knob to find the numbers.
Think was on the drag car I had no power for the light and the one I bought works like crap unless it is dark out.

Have you checked to see if you have all the holes firing?
Could pull 1 plug wire off at a time to see if they all drop the RPM the same amount.
If 1 or more don't, known as a dead hole, then they are not helping the motor run.
Dave ----

[Ferdinand]

TONS of helpful thoughts guys! Thank you‼️

I will be working through some reading tonight on the testing of the alternator that Gary referred to that Steve has put together.

I will try to get replies out to the questions here a bit later tonight also.

Trading my garage time for some research tonight. Hoping to get a good deal of garage time in tomorrow 🤞🏼.

Motivation is in good supply when I am making progress

Thanks again everyone! (now if I can just find that info. Steve had on the alternator 🤣)

[Gary Lewis]

In case you don't find it: https://www.supermotors.net/registry/media/897843

[Steve83]

FuzzFace2 wrote

I had a good SnapOn light also up till about 2 months ago.
I had some tools grow legs and walk out and that was one of them.

I buy used Snap-On tools on eBay if they're 1/2 the new price (on https://store.snapon.com/ ) or less.  For electronics, they have to be closer to 1/3 price because those aren't warranted - you have to pay for repairs.  But I only buy the ones that are guaranteed by the eBay seller to be in good working order.  That's where my timing light came from (even though I was working & had a regular Snap-On man at that time) years ago.  It came in the original plastic case, but I don't enough room for that in my tool boxes, so it's crammed into the junk drawer:

[FuzzFace2]

Steve83 wrote

FuzzFace2 wrote

I had a good SnapOn light also up till about 2 months ago.
I had some tools grow legs and walk out and that was one of them.

I buy used Snap-On tools on eBay if they're 1/2 the new price (on https://store.snapon.com/ ) or less.  For electronics, they have to be closer to 1/3 price because those aren't warranted - you have to pay for repairs.  But I only buy the ones that are guaranteed by the eBay seller to be in good working order.  That's where my timing light came from (even though I was working & had a regular Snap-On man at that time) years ago.  It came in the original plastic case, but I don't enough room for that in my tool boxes, so it's crammed into the junk drawer:

Thanks for the link I will check it out.
My light was still in the case and with other tools in cases, sawz all also taken, is on a shelf in the work shop and above that my electric drills (maybe 4?) not in cases where all taken.

What set it all off I went to get my cordless off the work bench in the garage and could not find it or the charger that I never move. Went for the corded drill and found them missing.
Being I don't go in the garage for weeks at a time I don't know when they left.

When I need a timing light I may also check with some of the pawn shops around here to see what they have. I am sure that's where the tools went but who knows?
Dave ----

[Ferdinand]

A quick question gentlemen and then I hope to respond at length on progress and input tonight after worship.

I got the Bronco down the driveway and back yesterday but it is still stalling A LOT when in gear. Also, it can BARELY pull the small hill to get back in my garage.

I don't remember putting the kick down lever back on my '82 when I built it (25 years ago), but maybe I did. That's too long for me to remember

Is it possible the seeming lack of power is from the C6 not "downshifting"?

I put it all the way down in 1st and it seemed to help a little, but I was thinking that it was more the engine barely running was the bigger culprit. (Sorry, but I didn't capture any footage of the drive) Maybe next time if we can't solve this before hand.

If I do need to put the kick down rod back on, does anyone have any suggestions as to how to lengthen it? I have need to extend it 5". (+4" for the air gap intake and +1" for the carb spacer)

I have a few ideas but it seems to me that the weight of it may be significant since it is helped by a spring. (I had thought about using a piece of copper pipe but am curious if that would be too heavy.

[Gary Lewis]

You don't need the kickdown lever.  Rusty didn't have one, but I could pull it down manually with the shift lever.

Do you have the choke connected yet?  It was obviously closed in the earlier video, and if it is not coming off the engine is not going to run well at all.

[Ferdinand]

Thanks Gary! I will work on getting the choke wired up tonight. I'm on the hunt to remove any variable I can!

I realize I will be far from "tuned" until I get the exhaust on and running an air cleaner but I should be able to get a lot closer than I am right now! 🙃

Will report in later tonight. Thanks again!!

[grumpin]

I don't remember all you did. Have you made sure your distributor is timed properly, as in, on the number one cylinder and the spark plug wires are in the correct firing order?

[FuzzFace2]

grumpin wrote

I don't remember all you did. Have you made sure your distributor is timed properly, as in, on the number one cylinder and the spark plug wires are in the correct firing order?

I also have not heard if he went back over this as I think from what I hear from the video it is only hitting on six cly. 2 wires crossed.
This would also say the cross wires because of the popping out the carb & exh.
Dave ----