Administrator
|
I'm not Bill, but I'll comment anyway.
The AOD was not used with the 351W in the trucks, probably due to not being stout enough for the torque of that engine, and your 347 stroker probably has at least as much torque as a stock 351W. So a stock AOD isn't a good idea. But I've read that they can be built to be very stout - at a price. And the AOD provides an overdrive as well as a lock-up torque converter - both of which the C6 lacks. Plus it doesn't require a computer to control it. So might be a good choice instead of an E4OD - especially if you stay with the EEC-IV system. Speaking of which, I think EEC-V would be the way to go if you are going to add aluminum heads. The EEC-IV systems assume that you've not changed anything in the inlet or exhaust system so if the throttle is open X%, the engine is spinning Y RPM, and the density is Z then you must be ingesting exactly this much air on each stroke. That's called "speed density" and it works fine on a stock engine. But aluminum heads are probably going to have better airflow as well as higher compression ratio, so the EEC-IV system is not going to get the right answer when it calculates the amount of air that is being ingested. Yes, with the O2 sensor it will realize it was in error and correct, but only to a certain extent. That's where the EEC-V system shines as it doesn't assume anything. Instead it measures the amount of air and, via the two O2 sensors, knows the AFR of both banks of the engine. So if you are going to add aluminum heads you should consider changing to EEC-V. And then you'll also have the ability to control an E4OD. But in reality a well-built AOD will do pretty much everything an E4OD will do, except that the E4OD has a bit lower 1st gear and OD.
Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile
Dad's: '81 F150 Ranger XLT 4x4: Down for restomod: Full-roller "stroked 351M" w/Trick Flow heads & intake, EEC-V SEFI/E4OD/3.50 gears w/Kevlar clutches
|
Administrator
|
I will throw a few remarks in on this. E4OD is roughly 6" overall longer than a C6, but the rear mounting pad is 9" further back meaning your transmission crossmember has to be relocated 9" further back on the frame. This will also move your 4WD shift lever back 6" inside the cab. Front driveshaft will need to be 6" longer and the rear 6" shorter.
There is another option, a 4R70/75W it is the same physical size as an AOD, but is stronger and computer controlled, It was used behind 302s and in the later versions, 4.6L and 5.4L Modular V8s. As far as computers, EEC-V computers can be re-flashed (reprogrammed) with the proper software and a "token" to break the Ford protection on it. It will require a fair amount of rewiring as the harness connection is 104 tiny pins as opposed to the 60 larger pins on an EEC-IV. It has more processor capacity and is faster than the EEC-IV. The other option is a separate transmission controller that can get needed information (throttle opening, engine load, speed) from the existing EEC-IV computer. Chrysler used a similar system for a number of years.
Bill AKA "LOBO" Profile
"Getting old is inevitable, growing up is optional" Darth Vader 1986 F350 460 converted to MAF/SEFI, E4OD 12X3 1/2 rear brakes, traction loc 3:55 gear, 160 amp 3G alternator Wife's 2011 Flex Limited Daily Driver 2009 Flex Limited with factory tow package Project car 1986 Chrysler LeBaron convertible 2.2L Turbo II, modified A413 |
Ok, as I've said, my truck was already switched from AOD to C6. So the former owner has done some modifications. If I'll switch back to a transmission that nearly has the size of the AOD...everything will be more "normal" again...
So reading everything Gary and Bill has written, my thoughts are going to check if my EEC-IV can handle a E4OD. If it's able to, I'm searching for a E4OD to rework and install it, because in my thoughts the overdrive will bring me the most benefits. The next step will be a new intake mainfold with plenum and single throttle body together with new aluminum heads and an EEC-V. I don't know, if more compression is really necessary, cause the power is already very good and I want to build something very long lasting... So as having too mich cars with construction sides, this is a two-year-plan. If my EEC-IV is not able to control a E4OD, the question is, if a EEC-V is able to rum without a MAF or if I'm able to build a MAF inside my two-channel air intake. Maybe with an Y-hose or something. But the first primary goal is to overhaul the rear differential that seems to have too much play...I still hope for a recommendation...
René's Profile
Bronco 1986 Ford Bronco XLT 302/347 stroker with 351W EEC-IV and 351W factory cam C6 gearbox. Jeep 1986 Jeep CJ7 256 I6 with T5 gearbox. Buggy 1972 HAZ Buggy 122 Ford Cologne V6 Baron 1994 Chrysler LeBaron convertible 183 V6 4-speed automatic |
Administrator
|
Sorry, I don't have a recommendation on an overhaul kit for the 8.8" as I've not worked on one.
Don't miss what Bill said about the E4OD's length as you will not only need a new crossmember but also new front and rear driveshafts. And it is possible that the transfer case will hit the floor of your Bronco. I had that problem in Dad's truck, which you can read about starting here, but ending here. I don't know if the Bronco floor pan would have the same problem, but it is something to think about. But if you are thinking about going to a MAF-based system I wouldn't worry about whether or not your EEC-IV ECU will run an E4OD. I'd make the move to EEC-V and get an ECU that will control that transmission. HOWEVER, also don't miss Bill's statement that "EEC-V computers can be re-flashed (reprogrammed) with the proper software and a "token" to break the Ford protection on it." Both he and I've done that and it isn't a simple walk in the park. And it isn't cheap. So in my estimation the easiest thing for you to do is to keep your EEC-IV system and have an AOD transmission built to handle your engine. It won't require changing the ECU, nor crossmember location, nor new driveshafts. And you'll still get a lock-up torque converter and OD. My guess is that a built AOD won't cost any more than a rebuilt E4OD, and it'll bolt right in.
Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile
Dad's: '81 F150 Ranger XLT 4x4: Down for restomod: Full-roller "stroked 351M" w/Trick Flow heads & intake, EEC-V SEFI/E4OD/3.50 gears w/Kevlar clutches
|
Gary!
This is what I love to be here! It's always to be on the point. I'll get answers to my needs. And there is still in mind that I'm outside the USA. We haven't have junkyards anymore here in Germany. I have the most parts to order directly from US-Stock. Especially for such a rare vehicle I drive here. I'll look up for a AOD and also for a kit to level-it-up. I think the parts for up-leveling won't be very heavy...so it will be maybe a good thing to do this, when getting an AOD from a local seller in Germany. When having done this, I'll maybe check for aluminum heads and a new intake mainfold including a new plenum and a new throttle body.
René's Profile
Bronco 1986 Ford Bronco XLT 302/347 stroker with 351W EEC-IV and 351W factory cam C6 gearbox. Jeep 1986 Jeep CJ7 256 I6 with T5 gearbox. Buggy 1972 HAZ Buggy 122 Ford Cologne V6 Baron 1994 Chrysler LeBaron convertible 183 V6 4-speed automatic |
Administrator
|
The beauty of going with an AOD, beyond using the same driveshafts and crossmember, is that you can do it w/o changing the ECU or wiring. And then you can decide about the heads and intake later.
Do you have places in Germany that rebuild American transmissions? If so they would surely know how to beef up an AOD. But let's see if Bill agrees with me. Bill?
Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile
Dad's: '81 F150 Ranger XLT 4x4: Down for restomod: Full-roller "stroked 351M" w/Trick Flow heads & intake, EEC-V SEFI/E4OD/3.50 gears w/Kevlar clutches
|
Administrator
|
If they can't beef up the AOD (look for parts from the earlier models used in police cars with the 351 engine). I still say, if you can find one, a 4R70/75W. It is a wide ratio computer controlled version of the AOD.
That means bolt-in for the original setup.
Bill AKA "LOBO" Profile
"Getting old is inevitable, growing up is optional" Darth Vader 1986 F350 460 converted to MAF/SEFI, E4OD 12X3 1/2 rear brakes, traction loc 3:55 gear, 160 amp 3G alternator Wife's 2011 Flex Limited Daily Driver 2009 Flex Limited with factory tow package Project car 1986 Chrysler LeBaron convertible 2.2L Turbo II, modified A413 |
In reply to this post by Gary Lewis
If you want something for an US-Car in Germany, you'll better do it by yourself...companies takes money as the cars or parts are directly imported from Mars...
But to be serious: The philosophy here in Germany is, that a car won't last more than three years. Buy-drive-sell. That's what it is. 20,000 kilometers and it's better to buy a new car than taking all the cost for services g. This is bad and a waste of material. Not any small approach of ecology or economy. Only the way to feed the big players of the automotive sector. So also of gasoline is very expensive today, I drive cheaper with an old, reliable US-Car, than with a new German car...that's only awkward and senseless...
René's Profile
Bronco 1986 Ford Bronco XLT 302/347 stroker with 351W EEC-IV and 351W factory cam C6 gearbox. Jeep 1986 Jeep CJ7 256 I6 with T5 gearbox. Buggy 1972 HAZ Buggy 122 Ford Cologne V6 Baron 1994 Chrysler LeBaron convertible 183 V6 4-speed automatic |
This post was updated on .
In reply to this post by 85lebaront2
Ok, I'll check what I'm able to get...
René's Profile
Bronco 1986 Ford Bronco XLT 302/347 stroker with 351W EEC-IV and 351W factory cam C6 gearbox. Jeep 1986 Jeep CJ7 256 I6 with T5 gearbox. Buggy 1972 HAZ Buggy 122 Ford Cologne V6 Baron 1994 Chrysler LeBaron convertible 183 V6 4-speed automatic |
In reply to this post by Gary Lewis
So, today I've done a photo of my ECU:
So its: E9TF-12A650-AB1B
René's Profile
Bronco 1986 Ford Bronco XLT 302/347 stroker with 351W EEC-IV and 351W factory cam C6 gearbox. Jeep 1986 Jeep CJ7 256 I6 with T5 gearbox. Buggy 1972 HAZ Buggy 122 Ford Cologne V6 Baron 1994 Chrysler LeBaron convertible 183 V6 4-speed automatic |
Administrator
|
Well, we have a match and it isn't what you wanted. That ECU works with a C6, not an E4OD. In fact, since the C6 doesn't require electronic controls I'd bet yours doesn't have that capability as Ford left things that weren't needed out to save money.
Here are the two calibration parts lists that used it:
Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile
Dad's: '81 F150 Ranger XLT 4x4: Down for restomod: Full-roller "stroked 351M" w/Trick Flow heads & intake, EEC-V SEFI/E4OD/3.50 gears w/Kevlar clutches
|
Ok, that's no problem for me, right now. I'm already looking for an AOD or a 4R70. I think both will also work quite good for the future.
The current plan is to get a transmission with overdrive (AOD with strength kit or 4R70) to save fuel for longer distances. The second goal are new aluminum heads, new intake an plenum with single throttle body, in combination with EEC-V and MAF. Does this provide any sense?
René's Profile
Bronco 1986 Ford Bronco XLT 302/347 stroker with 351W EEC-IV and 351W factory cam C6 gearbox. Jeep 1986 Jeep CJ7 256 I6 with T5 gearbox. Buggy 1972 HAZ Buggy 122 Ford Cologne V6 Baron 1994 Chrysler LeBaron convertible 183 V6 4-speed automatic |
Administrator
|
First, I'm pretty sure a 4R70 also requires electronic control. So you'd be required to find another ECU or convert to EEC-V.
Second, while I spent the money and changed to a ZF5 in Big Blue and an E4OD in Dad's truck, I'm not sure I'll ever save enough money to make it worthwhile. However I realize that your price of fuel is far higher than ours, but so is the price of a new transmission. Still, the quieter operation by reducing engine RPM is worth something. So the finances aren't the only consideration. As for the aluminum heads, MAF, and EEC-V, if you are going to do that then I'd do that before doing the transmission. That way you could go for a 4R70 or an E4OD instead of the AOD. But again, I seriously doubt any of this will pay out via fuel savings in any reasonable timeframe.
Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile
Dad's: '81 F150 Ranger XLT 4x4: Down for restomod: Full-roller "stroked 351M" w/Trick Flow heads & intake, EEC-V SEFI/E4OD/3.50 gears w/Kevlar clutches
|
It's not only the money...it's also the rpm for me. With my current setup I think I can drive up to 90 mph and the engine still wants to do more. The feeling is that the car wants to go forward more and more!
Also the point of cost is a point. As currently seeable, I can get an AOD for about 900 Euro plus the rework kit, maybe 1500 Euro. Plus the work needed. Ic can work atvthe Trans while driving the car. As changing the heads and the ECU, I'll need the car standing more time. And as far as I know, it also will be more expensive. As for the price of gasoline...we currently reached a low price of about 6.43 USD per gallon...
René's Profile
Bronco 1986 Ford Bronco XLT 302/347 stroker with 351W EEC-IV and 351W factory cam C6 gearbox. Jeep 1986 Jeep CJ7 256 I6 with T5 gearbox. Buggy 1972 HAZ Buggy 122 Ford Cologne V6 Baron 1994 Chrysler LeBaron convertible 183 V6 4-speed automatic |
In reply to this post by Gary Lewis
To ask the question in the other direction:
Is it possible/rational to swap to the EEC-V and an E4OD or 4R70 without changing the heads and the intake? I think adding a MAF inside my intake won't be a problem, if this is the only thing I've to add. I also can easily change the wiring of my injectors...
René's Profile
Bronco 1986 Ford Bronco XLT 302/347 stroker with 351W EEC-IV and 351W factory cam C6 gearbox. Jeep 1986 Jeep CJ7 256 I6 with T5 gearbox. Buggy 1972 HAZ Buggy 122 Ford Cologne V6 Baron 1994 Chrysler LeBaron convertible 183 V6 4-speed automatic |
Administrator
|
Yes, it is certainly possible to go to EEC-V w/o changing out the heads. And you could change the heads later if you thought you needed to do so.
But there are other things beyond the MAF sensor that need to be added and the injector wiring. As Bill said, the IV has 60 pins in the connector and the V has 104. So the connector and pins have to be changed. However, you said your setup will take EEC-V so maybe there's a conversion interface? And back to the discussion about the desire and economic feasibility for a better transmission, I do understand. Been there, did that, and got the tee shirt. But I just wanted to make sure that you've thought through it. I really like the ZF5 and am glad I did it. Driving Big Blue as I do it sure is nice to get the RPM down to 1900 or so on the highway. It make for a much quieter and relaxed drive. Plus I am getting better MPG than I did with the other tranny.
Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile
Dad's: '81 F150 Ranger XLT 4x4: Down for restomod: Full-roller "stroked 351M" w/Trick Flow heads & intake, EEC-V SEFI/E4OD/3.50 gears w/Kevlar clutches
|
Administrator
|
In reply to this post by ReneH
Yes, that is essentially what I did on Darth. Mine was driven by a similar problem, getting a computer that would give me sequential injection using a mass air flow sensor (MAF) and controlling the E4OD transmission. Everyone wanted to push using a Mustang EEC-IV, one big problem with that, the E4OD is strictly a truck transmission and is different enough in it's internals and shifting sequence that the computer needs to be designed for it.
Since this was being done a little over 10 years ago, one of my options was a separate computer for the transmission, at the time Baumann was about the only source and I was looking at $1500 for what I would need, that on top of an engine computer. I had settled on what seemed a viable solution, a Bronco 5.0L/E4OD combination. I was able to find a suitable computer and most of the engine wiring harness. I purchased a TwEECer (a piggyback tuner for the EEC-IV) and was trying to get some help in setting up what I would need. Biggest concern was the transmission portion. A 460 engine is a torque engine that gets a lot of it's power at lower rpm as it was originally for Lincolns that were big heavy cars. A 302 develops it's power at higher rpm and I didn't want (a) buzzing a 460 with a lot of miles up like a 302 and (b) didn't want the transmission to drop out of converter lockup and/or downshift with just a little throttle application. While I was asking on a couple of EEC tuning forums, I was contacted by Adam Marrer through his business POPs racing (stands for Pony on Pony racing). He convinced me to move up to the EEC-V as it could be reflashed with a different program and he offered me a terrific deal. He is now, with two other men operating Core Tuning LLC and specializing in the Ford EEC systems.
Bill AKA "LOBO" Profile
"Getting old is inevitable, growing up is optional" Darth Vader 1986 F350 460 converted to MAF/SEFI, E4OD 12X3 1/2 rear brakes, traction loc 3:55 gear, 160 amp 3G alternator Wife's 2011 Flex Limited Daily Driver 2009 Flex Limited with factory tow package Project car 1986 Chrysler LeBaron convertible 2.2L Turbo II, modified A413 |
Ok. So as reading what Bill has written, it is necessary to flash the EEC-V with a custom firmware?
To change the connector will not a problem at all. I think I won't need much more wires as I use with the EEC-IV. Cause I couldn't imagine where these wires should end... I would like to discover what the first invest would be for changing to the EEC-V...what do I need? EEC-V (re-programmed?) MAF-Sensor Connector for EEC-V If everything fits in my budget, I can buy these parts and stay on to find an E4OD or a 4R70...
René's Profile
Bronco 1986 Ford Bronco XLT 302/347 stroker with 351W EEC-IV and 351W factory cam C6 gearbox. Jeep 1986 Jeep CJ7 256 I6 with T5 gearbox. Buggy 1972 HAZ Buggy 122 Ford Cologne V6 Baron 1994 Chrysler LeBaron convertible 183 V6 4-speed automatic |
Administrator
|
If you contact: http://www.coretuning.net/ and let them know Gary and I recommended them, they can suggest what is available in Europe (hopefully). I have an EEC-V box here from a 1996 E250 351W and E4OD. The hardware code is ML1-441 which identifies it as having the needed circuits for an electronic controlled transmission, either a 4R70/75W or an E4OD.
The 4R70/75W designation is 4 - 4 speed, R - rear wheel drive (as opposed to F - front wheel drive) 70 or 75 mkg input torque, W - wide ratio. The E4OD was upgraded and re-designated as a 4R100. The gear ratios in an AOD are 1st 2.40:1, 2nd 1.47:1, 3rd 1:1, 4th 0.67:1; E4OD ratios are 1st 2.71:1, 2nd 1.54:1, 3rd 1:1, 4th 0.71:1; 4R70/75W 1st 2.84:1, 2nd 1.55:1, 3rd 1:1, 4th 0.70:1; your present C6 ratios are 1st 2.46:1, 2nd 1.46:1, 3rd 1:1. For a rough idea on torque converter slippage at highway speeds (air drag should be similar) 3rd gear in Darth with a C6 engine rpm was 2700 at 55 mph, E4OD in 4th, lockup 1700 rpm, in 3rd torque converter 2700 rpm, 3rd lockup, 2200 rpm, so 500 rpm is lost and shows up as heat.
Bill AKA "LOBO" Profile
"Getting old is inevitable, growing up is optional" Darth Vader 1986 F350 460 converted to MAF/SEFI, E4OD 12X3 1/2 rear brakes, traction loc 3:55 gear, 160 amp 3G alternator Wife's 2011 Flex Limited Daily Driver 2009 Flex Limited with factory tow package Project car 1986 Chrysler LeBaron convertible 2.2L Turbo II, modified A413 |
Administrator
|
In reply to this post by ReneH
I don't believe it is necessary to change, or "flash", the ECU if you start with the right one - and if you have all the bits it is expecting.
You effectively have a 351 so if you found an ECU for a 351W/E4OD combo that would work. However, it is going to expect you to have all the emissions equipment, like EGR and vapor recovery. So if you don't have that then you will have to reprogram the ECU. I don't have EGR or the vapor recovery so I had to reprogram an ECU. And I'll do that for Dad's truck also. Plus Steve/Foxford33 will have me do one for his Wagoneer. Bill - Could you flash one for Rene? Is that ok with Core Tuning? You'd obviously have to buy a token, but...
Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile
Dad's: '81 F150 Ranger XLT 4x4: Down for restomod: Full-roller "stroked 351M" w/Trick Flow heads & intake, EEC-V SEFI/E4OD/3.50 gears w/Kevlar clutches
|
Edit this page |