Fuel Injection upgrade

[Rusty_S85]

Yep, Im glad I dont have to find another cam cause this cam I think is going to be great for my flareside truck.

Now I just have to catch the engine builder when I go back to work before he goes home at the end of the day today cause I need to pick his brain on a few things.

Need to ask him if there is a tool for installing the oil filter adapter piece into the block.  The one I have being delivered today is the NOS one for our trucks and not the revised one with the allen/torx in the mouth for tightening.  This one is also not like the one from the early 70s that had the hex head at the base.  This is all round with no way to grab it without grabbing the oil filter threads end.  Im thinking if there is no special tool for it I might just look up the FL1A thread specs and buy two nuts in that size and back them up to one another so I can tighten it up.

I also need to ask him about the cam bearings, part of me is worried that I scuffed the forward most cam bearing.  My brain says it should be fine as there is no gouge or scratch or groove just a discoloration.  Can slide finger and fingernail over them and you dont feel anything its all smooth.  But my gut says I need to ask just to make sure.

I also need to ask him about the cam pin cause I may be pulling the cam out again and bringing it to him and having him install the pin if the NOS pins coming in between Thursday and Monday are still oversized for the hole in the cam.

I probably will have a few more questions later on for him but for now that is all I need to get moving along on my build.

I need to try and locate my harborfreight digital caliper so I can measure my piston to deck clearance cause I suspect its a lot closer than 0.010" I think its going to be around 0.005" or so cause the piston is almost flush with the deck.

I also got a little refund on the cam pins as I bought a pack of 10 from ebay but he only had 7 so he credited me the difference.  I dont even need seven but hey if I have to use one of these and cut it down to size I will gladly do it if it fits right.  I also should be getting my block dowels for the transmission today or tomorrow if the tracking is right.

[Rusty_S85]

Ok, talked with the engine builder I know today after work.  He informed me some of those pins can be tight but they shouldnt be so tight you have to press them in.  They should go in fairly easy.  So I will have to see what I am looking at when the NOS pins come in.  On ebay it looks like they are scheduled to be delivered Thursday.

On the oil filter adapter he said to get an allen wrench/socket that just barely fits in the opening of the fitting and take a hammer and tap it in and use that to install the adapter piece.  I need to check the adapter piece tomorrow cause it looks awfully smaller than the opening in the block but maybe that is just me.  I did look up the part number in the ford parts and illustration guide which shows it was revised in the early 90s so they should all be the same.

Still trying to locate my digital caliper I know I had it not long ago cause I bought batteries for it and installed a new button battery.  If I cant locate it before I go to bed tonight I will just swing my harbor freight and buy another one for $20.  These are accurate to 0.001" which is all I need for measuring the dowels the opening in the cam as well as measuring the piston to deck clearance so I can accurately calculate compression ratio.

[Rusty_S85]

Another week wasted and shot.  I got the pins in and measured them the difference between the hole in the cam and the pin is 0.0135" for the Crane supplied pin and 0.005" for the OE ford pin.  I took and chucked the OE pin in my drill and used fine grade sand paper to polish and slightly thin the pin out to fit more with a gentle push than a hammer but that was of no use.  I thought I had it so proceeded to tap the pin in and it got to the same point and seized up again.  I didnt use a metal hammer this time I stopped and pulled the cam out and bagged it to take it to the engine builder I know and will let him install it the rest of the way.  Im not fighting this anymore.

In the process of pulling the cam I decided to try out my new cam installation/removal tool and tried my 3/8" cam bolt only to find out the cam is not 3/8" but is the larger 7/16" bolt and I cant find a single listing from ARP`s website under small block ford 302 so I will have to email them to see if they know what I need cause I wont be installing a hardware store grade bolt for something as critical as this.

I did get my oil filter adapter installed using vise grips at the smooth shoulder since I didnt have an allen key large enough to tap into the fitting.

I tried using my crowsfoot 3/8" on an extension to torque the 3/8" bolt for my oil pump to 45 ft lbs and couldnt do it, the crowsfoot started to expand and would have rounded the bolt off.  So I guess I will have to let it ride and hope the wrench I used got close to 45 ft lbs.

So as of now I made almost no progress due to lack of information from Crane on how to install these pins as well as lack of information on Crane about the bolt size.  I dont know why they would make a 5.0L camshaft and then not use the OE 3/8" bolt.

[Gary Lewis]

Sorry for your problems.  That's a bummer!  Hopefully your engine builder can fix it.

[Rusty_S85]

Gary Lewis wrote

Sorry for your problems.  That's a bummer!  Hopefully your engine builder can fix it.

Im sure he can.  I think he will probably put it in his press and seat it that way.  But I am taking a spare OE Ford pin just incase of this pin does something weird.

As far as the bolt goes, I had to buy a 5 pack of generic bolts and I bought a single ARP special purpose washer in almost the same dimensions as the washer that came with the ARP cam bolt I got.

Bolt set I got was ARPs 753-1500 with a 1.500" under head length (3/8" cambolt is 1.49").  I also opted for the hex head as I prefer 6 point as I can use 6 point or 12 point sockets where as with 12 point bolts you have to have a 12 point socket.

The washer I got was ARPs 200-8708 which is a 7/16" ID x 0.995" OD x 0.120" thickness.  The supplied washer with the 3/8" bolt  is 1.20" OD x 0.120" thickness.  Since I will be retaining the two piece fuel pump eccentric which I will have to drill the hole from 3/8" to 7/16" to fit the larger bolt, the smaller OD washer should be fine as the inner piece of the fuel pump eccentric will still be acting as a washer in of itself spreading the load out more.

Only thing I am wary of is ARP recommends 7/16" bolts be torqued to 70 ft-lbs.  not sure how I feel about the cam bolt being torqued to 70 ft-lbs but it seems others have done it with no issues so surely the threads in my steel cam should be strong enough to handle it.

If I can get the engine builder I know to seat the pin in fully for me I think I will put the cam back in tonight and do some work on the engine.  I been avoiding working on it after work cause I am usually tired but Ive had the engine 3 weeks this up coming Wed and all I really have to show for assembly is the oil pump, oil pump pickup, and the oil filter adapter.

I need to get some work done on it and now that I placed my order from summit which should be here some time this week I can hop back onto my word pad document and calculate compression and quench cause I am looking at 0.003" to 0.005" deck clearance right now (I measured clearance at top of piston and at bottom of piston and then found the difference between the two since all pistons will rock some).  I can use this time to see if I want to stick with the AFR recommended headgaskets for my heads or if I want to go with a thinner one.  Ones I got are 0.041" compressed thickness and with 0.005" that will put me at 0.046" quench which is at the border line.  Ideal I think I read was 0.025" but long as its under 0.050" I am fine as quench doesnt exist above 0.050"

[Rusty_S85]

Engine builder I know was able to get the pin installed a bit further than I did.

He also strongly recommended I take a cut off wheel on my airgrinder and cut a small piece off the pin to clear the two piece fuel pump eccentric tang.  I am in agreeance with him that the pin is in far enough to not come out especially with the two piece fuel pump eccentric holding the pin captured.

He also strongly recommended against torquing the 7/16-20 fine thread ARP bolt I got for my cam bolt to 70ft lbs.  He said torque it to 45-50 ft-lbs and see how it feel and only go up in 5 ft-lb increments long as the threads dont feel like they are trying to pull out of the cam.  I think I will forego the arp bolt lube on the threads just apply it to the hex head between the washer and the head of the bolt and then apply some red loctite to the threads to lock it in place to prevent it from loosening up by not having it torqued fully to the 70ft lbs recommended by ARP.  I really dont want to damage the threads in the cam snout so I will go a little cautious on this.

He also informed me the Comp Magnum #2138 double roller timing set is not a true double roller.  He pointed out to me the seam on the pins indicating that they are not true rollers like I thought.  Stated true rollers are oversized at 0.250" pins.

So since I am wanting to run a true roller set I am looking at a couple Cloyes true roller timing sets for use with 2 piece fuel pump eccentrics.  Cloyes #9-1138 Street True Roller is priced less than the Comp Mangum set at $41.99 (Comps timing set cost me $54.99).  This one clearly states it is double row type with over sized 0.250" rollers.  The other Cloyes is the #9-3138 Original Race True Roller priced at more than the Comp Magnum set at $106.99.  This set clearly sates its a true roller with 0.250" rollers but also states that it is hand-matched to qualify the correct center distance and minimize runout.  This is for the standard 4.804" distance center to center for crank and cam.

I am personally leaning towards the #9-3138 as I believe the chain will be a lot snugger fit which will help stabilize the valve train.  How ever I really want to place my order now but I do not know if my block will handle the 4.804" standard distance.  I would have to install the cam and then measure but not sure how I can get to 0.001" accuracy.

[Gary Lewis]

I think I like the idea of cutting the pin off since you'll have the eccentric holding it in.

But I don't think I'd use red Loctite on the cam bolt.  You aren't going to get that out w/o heating things and you may destroy the cam doing so.  I would use blue or, if I'm really wanting to ensure it doesn't move, use the new orange.

On the timing chain, if you've had them align-bore the main bearings the distance from there to the cam might be different than stock.  But measuring that accurately wouldn't be easy.  You'd have to measure from the crank to the center of the cam and then subtract 1/2 the diameter of the crank.  But can you accurately measure to the center of the cam?

[Rusty_S85]

Gary Lewis wrote

I think I like the idea of cutting the pin off since you'll have the eccentric holding it in.

But I don't think I'd use red Loctite on the cam bolt.  You aren't going to get that out w/o heating things and you may destroy the cam doing so.  I would use blue or, if I'm really wanting to ensure it doesn't move, use the new orange.

On the timing chain, if you've had them align-bore the main bearings the distance from there to the cam might be different than stock.  But measuring that accurately wouldn't be easy.  You'd have to measure from the crank to the center of the cam and then subtract 1/2 the diameter of the crank.  But can you accurately measure to the center of the cam?

I have blue as well as red thread locker I thought about using blue but then started second guessing if it would be strong enough to hold the bolt from backing out under the conditions the cam is exposed to, for me I would rather be more cautious than not cause Ive been lucky before just tightening the cam bolt on previous engines as tight as I could till the engine started spinning and didnt have any problem.  But with how much money I have in this build I dont know if I want to skimp on that detail.

Well part of the rebuild process is having the crank aligned honed which I dont think changed the distance but part of me would still line to double check it considering the price difference in timing sets is $50 for one and $110 for the other.  I guess I could just take a chance on it, worse case is if there is a difference the chain would be super loose and I could always send it back saying its not right and get a refund on it.

[Gary Lewis]

If you haven't you should try the new Permatex® High Strength Removable Threadlocker ORANGE:

Permatex High Strength Removable ORANGE is a hybrid formula that combines the strength of a Permatex Threadlocker RED with the removability of a Permatex Threadlocker BLUE. Permatex Threadlocker ORANGE provides high strength for heavy-duty applications, but unlike Threadlocker RED, it can removed with hand tools and does not require heating to achieve removal. Ideal for high vibration applications such as power sports, heavy equipment, automotive, and industrial applications. With 3X the strength of Threadlocker BLUE, Permatex Threadlocker ORANGE ensures that pieces will not loosen or back out over time.

[Rusty_S85]

Gary Lewis wrote

If you haven't you should try the new Permatex® High Strength Removable Threadlocker ORANGE:

Permatex High Strength Removable ORANGE is a hybrid formula that combines the strength of a Permatex Threadlocker RED with the removability of a Permatex Threadlocker BLUE. Permatex Threadlocker ORANGE provides high strength for heavy-duty applications, but unlike Threadlocker RED, it can removed with hand tools and does not require heating to achieve removal. Ideal for high vibration applications such as power sports, heavy equipment, automotive, and industrial applications. With 3X the strength of Threadlocker BLUE, Permatex Threadlocker ORANGE ensures that pieces will not loosen or back out over time.

Thanks, I never heard of the Orange till now.  Then again I mainly stick to LocTite brand over permatex but they all in the end are the same.  I actually placed an order for a small bottle of the orange from amazon should be here thursday.  I hope not to be too tired tomorrow after work so I can put my cam back in and throw the new timing set I bought off Amazon that is scheduled to be delivered tomorrow.  I can at least mock it up and get it ready to degree the cam this weekend.  I ended up getting the cheaper $41 Cloyes #9-1138 as I didnt think I needed the hand matched gears for a daily driver truck.  Its still a large .250" pin on a true double roller set up so I should still be fine.

I was reading the information on LocTite`s website and it mentions larger threads require higher strength but they mean diameter as under thread size it states Medium 243 Blue is for fasteners up to thread size M18.  M18 is pertaining to the diameter of the fastener not the thread pitch.  So I might be able to get away with the blue but I figure for $10 I can get a small bottle of the orange and that should be enough for what I am needing it for such as the cam thrust plate and the cam gear .

[Rusty_S85]

Made more progress today before I had to stop due to lack of parts I had to verify.

First off I got the cam and timing set installed along with the 7/16"-20 bolt and degreed the camshaft.  At 0.050" lift off the base circle I had intake open 0.5" BTDC and close at 34.5* ABDC.  Cam card states 1.0* BTDC open and 35.0* ABDC.  I then found peak lift and went 0.050" on either side of peak lift which got e 150* and 64* which comes out to 107* center line.  Cam card states intake center line is 107*, so as far as the cam goes with the Cloyes true roller timing set the cam is installed where it should be.

Second thing is I am concerned about the cam bolt.  There is no torque spec listed with the Crane paper work included with my cam and no mention of the fact that it went from the OE 3/8" bolt to a 7/16" fine threaded bolt.  ARP states 7/16" bolts are to be torqued to 70 ft lbs.  I felt that was too much and the engine builder I know thought so too considering its fine thread where as the big block fords using 7/16" bolts that are coarse threaded run 75ft lbs.  So I did like he recommended, I started at 50 ft lbs and my wrench clicked nicely with no funny feeling so then I proceeded to set my wrench to 60 ft lbs this is when things got funky.  The bolt continued to tighten up on the first slow turn of the wrench but the second turn it felt like it was starting to require less effort to push the torque wrench over and I stopped right there for fear of it trying to pull the threads out of the camshaft.  I am currently concerned doing this that the engine may pull the threads out and get loose once running but I didnt pull the bolt out to check it on fear of it not reaching 50 ft lbs this go.  At least now I know it is some where around 50ft lbs where I left it at.  I didnt check it but I also started thinking maybe the less effort was because the cam gear was pushing past the opening of the thrust plate cause I know I cant move the cam forward or backward and not sure if its the thrust plate being too close a tolerance or if its the fact the crank gear on the timing set I had to tap on to fully seat it and the double roller is not allow enough flex to show cam thrust.

So as of right now I am worried on this aspect and not sure if I should tomorrow pull the bolt out even though it has locktite on it right now and inspect the threads or if I should just let it ride.  Im afraid if I pull it out it will set me back by requiring me to pull the cam out yet again to have it drilled out and tapped for a 1/2" bolt.  As of now my thought is leave it alone and let it ride and just hope like hell I am not on the highway doing 60-65 and nail the throttle to pass someone and the threads pull out and sheer off the pin and wipe the motor out cause that is my worse case idea as of right now.

Once I found true top dead center through the use of a piston stop I double checked my deck clearance with my digital dial caliper and I will have to redo my figuring cause I didnt do it directly in the middle of the piston center line of the piston pin I did it on top and bottom and then averaged it out to account for piston rock.  Well doing it on the center line of the pin the first measurement I got was 0.0015" but then I did the measurement 4 more times with it coming back as 0.0010".  That is going to make a big change cause my figuring was on 0.00725" average which was giving me 9.25:1 or 9.30:1 depending on which felpro headgasket I run.  If I run the gasket I currently have which is 4.100" x 0.041" Im looking at 9.39:1 compression, if I buy the 4.100" x 0.039" version I am looking at 9.44:1 which is closer to my 9.50:1 goal but still a far cry from the 10.50:1 goal the engine builder I know is saying I should be shooting for totally ignoring that when Crane was still around their cam card online for this cam in the description stated "Good low end torque and HP, good idle, daily usage, performance and fuel efficiency, off road, towing, 2400-3000 cruise rpm, 8.75 to 10.0 compression ratio advised".  I feel 9.5:1 goal puts it right in the middle of the advised and think pushing it to 10.5:1 wouldnt be smart.

As of right now I cant do any more assembly as I forgot I dont have the timing cover bolts I wanted to check my truck and make sure I dont have any bolts with studs on the end for accessories so I checked today it appears every bolt is just a regular bolt with the accessory brackets for powersteering and ac bolting directly to a threaded boss in the waterpump itself.  So I have to order an ARP bolt set for the timing cover and water pump as well as a fuel pump block off plate bolt set cause I some how forgot to order one of those.  I also need to order 6 quarts of driven 10w40 break in oil so I can soak the roller lifters and install them as well as to dump in the engine after I do my painting of the completed assembly.  I also need to pick up a distributor hold down bolt as well I guess ARP doesnt make one cause I think I bought all hardware from ARP that I know I will use and I dont have that bolt in my storage box.





~Update~

I got the distributor hold down stud from ARP ordered, I got 6 quarts of Driven 10w40 break in oil ordered, and the ARP iron/aluminum timing cover/water pump bolt set ordered from Summit.  The oil and small parts tote and hold down stud will ship monday, the timing cover bolt set is scheduled to be shipped in October but last time I saw that long a delay in shipping it actually came sooner so I am hopeful it comes in sooner.  Otherwise I will be screwed for finishing my engine this year due to lack of parts.

[Rusty_S85]

After much thought I have decided I am going to pull the 7/16-20 bolt out and find out whats going on after work today.

I need to find out why I have no thrust on the cam as it doesnt move forward nor backwards.  I also want to investigate the threads on the cam to see if they are stripped out or what.

I also need to do some research and find out about the thrust plate itself if it could have enough slop in the bolt holes to be off enough to prevent the cam gear from seating fully which could result in my lack of thrust.

In any case I need to find out whats going on and if the threads are messed up in the cam I will drill them out and install a 7/16-20 helicoil and do it again.  I need to be sure as I will be driving this engine every day and I cant have in the back of my head if every time I nail the throttle if the cam bolt is going to let loose due to damaged threads or if the engine warms up and the cam tries to lock up due to lack of thrust.

[Rusty_S85]

Well I decided to do like the engine builder told me and let the cam bolt ride.  With the locktite on it and the fact it didnt actually strip out but was starting to it should be fine to leave it alone for the long haul.

Tomorrow I am going to I think get the roller lifters temporarily installed along with my head sans headgasket to find out what length pushrod I need so I can order pushrods so hopefully they will get here in time with all the other parts I am waiting on so I can actually get my assembly to a point where I can actually sit my sniper stealth on and start working on shaping the metal hardlines and seeing if its possible to route them like the OE carb line was routed.

I ordered a ARP timing cover/water pump bolt set only to find out after 5 days that the one I ordered was for the older 289/302 with aluminum timing cover and a cast iron water pump it only fit up to '73 year model engines.  I ordered the correct set from Summit since it was a estimated ship date of Oct 2021 just like the other set, I dont know why I didnt check amazon/jegs but I checked them last night and found that Jegs has the bolt set in stock and I canceled that order and got the order from Jegs for some $5 more just to get them sooner.

I also am looking forward to trying out the evaporative cooler I got from the cornwell guy at work, hopefully it will work better at keeping me cool tomorrow over the box fan Ive been using.


Not only is it cheaper than a porta-cool of the same size it also has the media pads on three sides where as the portacool only has the media pad on one side.

[Gary Lewis]

I agree with you engine builder - I think your cam bolt will be fine.  And it sounds like you are now starting to make progress.  Good plan to mock it up, measure the push rod length, and get that going.  Are you cutting an old rod and installing an all-thread to make it adjustable?  Or how are you going to measure?

The cooler should be a big improvement over just a fan, but a lot of that depends on your humidity.  They work great in AZ where there's very little moisture in the air, and not so well in FL where the moisture level is very high.  But I forget where you live?

[Rusty_S85]

Gary Lewis wrote

I agree with you engine builder - I think your cam bolt will be fine.  And it sounds like you are now starting to make progress.  Good plan to mock it up, measure the push rod length, and get that going.  Are you cutting an old rod and installing an all-thread to make it adjustable?  Or how are you going to measure?

The cooler should be a big improvement over just a fan, but a lot of that depends on your humidity.  They work great in AZ where there's very little moisture in the air, and not so well in FL where the moisture level is very high.  But I forget where you live?

I bought a Lunati pushrod length checker, I got it in 5.70" to 6.70" I think is the range.

I did the half lift method to get the rocker arm level at mid lift.  For those that dont know the process is you take the lift of your cam at the valve and divide it in half.

In my case intake is 0.520" at the valve and half of that is 0.260".

You draw a line or envision an imaginary line from the center line of the roller tip to the center line of the trunion pivot.  You then hold the rocker arm up against the polylock and screw it down till the line is horizonal level to that of the valve spring retainer.

After that you take the half lift measurement and adjust the poly lock down to half lift.

In my case using 7/16-20 studs which is one full turn equal to 0.050", it would take me 5.2 turns to reach 0.260".

Once you get the rocker arm positioned here you adjust the pushrod out till it touches both the cup in the lifter and the cup in the rocker arm then measure.

I did this and measured 6.50" length.  But I am concerned with this as I put a sharpie mark on the valve tip and reinstalled the rocker arm with the length set to 6.50" and wiggled the roller tip to mark the valve tip.  It was actually showing the wheel to be resting on the outboard side of the center of the valve.  Thats not right, you want the roller to be on the inboard side of the center of the valve as the valve moves the roller tip rolls outwards and you want mid lift to be in the center of the valve.

I did this again but set the pushrod length to 6.25" which is OE 5.0 roller length and wiggled the rocker arm to mark a fresh layer of sharpie on the valve tip.  This put the roller inboard of the center line of the valve as shown here.



In this photo since I didnt get a photo of the mark with a 6.50" pushrod length the line drawn is where the mark was located at.

The redline represents where the wheel was touching the valve and the blue line represents roughly center of the valve.


This is also done without the headgasket installed and the head just simply resting on the deck.  So adding the head gasket will pull the rocker arm contact inboard but not that much inboard to pull it back inboard of the center line of the valve.

AFR stated to use OE length push rod or a pushrod 0.100" longer than OE with this head.  I set my adjustable pushrod at 6.35" which is 0.100" over OE and it moved the wheel closer to center line.  If I want to maintain this starting position then I need to add the head gasket thickness to the pushrod length to compensate for the extra length needed.  So I am looking at 6.391" if I stick with the 0.041" thick gaskets or 6.389".  It looks like I probably should be looking at 6.40" to off set the gaskets but the thing that is bothering me is I did the half lift method just like it is supposed to be done and it put my rocker arm outboard of where it should have been.  I really want my rocker to be perfectly level at half lift as this would minimize the movement of the tip across the valve but I just dont know why this way is not working out.  I tried it multiple times as well as doing my math multiple times and it comes out the same with the pushrod length being around 6.50" and the roller tip outboard of the center of the valve which will mean it will get extremely close to the edge of the valve tip as the rocker arm moves the valve.

Next two photos is just of the AFR Renegade 165cc head sitting on the dowels.  I didnt feel like digging the box back out to put the head back up and feel it should be safe on the block till I get the head bolted down.





I currently have the roller lifters soaking in a quart of BR40 Driven 10w40 break in oil which is what I will be using for the initial 30 minutes of run time.  Im going to run the engine at an idle for 15 minutes followed by a full cool down and another 15 minute idle time then a full cool down and oil change to Valvoline 10w30 conventional which will stay in till 500 miles for the first oil change then I will use it till I hit the third oil change which should be around 5,000 miles (going to do first oil change at 500 mi, second at 1,500, third at 3,000) I will be switching over to valvoline full synthetic 10w30 just to try and squeeze as much longevity out of this engine as possible.

Tomorrow the lifters should have soaked enough to get the needle bearings in the roller tips fully saturated in oil and I will install them in the block along with the dog bones and spider retainers.  That way I can go ahead and decide if I really want to get the Felpro 0.039" head gaskets and just dont use the 0.041" I have.  It would give me a bit more compression and would put me a little closer to ideal quench.

I also need to hit up the engine builder I know see if he will be turning his blast cabinet on this coming up week, if he does I am going to see how much he will charge me to sand blast the NOS oil pan I got, I am concerned the paint inside may flake off and clog up my pickup so want to get that out of the inside of the pan.  I also am afraid the eastwood 2K engine primer might have a chemical reaction to the grey paint on the oil pan exterior so I rather start off with all bare metal.  I need to get this done this week or next cause my ARP timing cover and water pump bolt kit comes in this coming up week from jegs and I will be installing the timing cover and then I can install the oil pan.

One thing I found out is if I ever have a roller lifter problem I will have to pull the head cause there is no way to get the OE roller lifters out I tried to get cylinder 1 out with the head sitting on the deck surface so I dont know if the extra height added from the head gasket would allow them to come out or not but I will be installing them before I torque the head in place just in case.

On the evaporative cooler it actually worked quite good today, I didnt sweat much with the cooler on.  One thing though it helps to follow the instructions it states to run the pump for about 10 minutes to saturate the media pads before turning the fan on.  One at work the other guys just flip the pump on and the fan on at the same time and it takes for ever for the pads to get saturated with water and start to cool.

In 4 1/2 hours of being outside I used 3/4 of the 10 gallons of water I put in it so it is thirsty but it works good and I was able to run it on low speed the whole time.

Also I am in Texas, bout 35 miles from the coast so its fairly humid here.  Today humidity was 63%.

[Gary Lewis]

Yipes, that's a looooooong post!

I'm not a valve train guru, so while I understand what you are doing I don't have any suggestions for you.  However, I got lost in your math, or more specifically your statement of "So I am looking at 6.391" if I stick with the 0.041" thick gaskets or 6.389".  

On the break in, I've always been told that you want the first 20 minutes to be at 2000 RPM, not idle.  

Anyway, glad the cooler worked.  

[Rusty_S85]

Gary Lewis wrote

Yipes, that's a looooooong post!

I'm not a valve train guru, so while I understand what you are doing I don't have any suggestions for you.  However, I got lost in your math, or more specifically your statement of "So I am looking at 6.391" if I stick with the 0.041" thick gaskets or 6.389".  

On the break in, I've always been told that you want the first 20 minutes to be at 2000 RPM, not idle.  

Anyway, glad the cooler worked.  

6.391" length if I stick with the 0.041" thick head gaskets or if I go with the 0.039" thick head gaskets I would be looking at shorter 6.389" length push rods.  The extra length is to compensate for the thickness of the headgasket which is not currently installed between the head and the block.  I have to pull the head to get the lifters in and dont want to install the gasket till I am absolutely ready to torque the head in place and let it stay there.

Another thing is AFR recommends 0.120" wall thickness pushrods and Scorpion recommends 0.120" wall thickness pushrods.  My problem here is if I go 0.120" like both of them recommend, the only length pushrods I have as an option to me are 6.300", 6.350", 6.400".  I could run the 6.350" or 6.400" if I decide to add the headgasket thickness or not to the length.  But there is no 6.50" length which is what I come up with not account for headgasket thickness.  With the 0.039" thickness added it brings it to 6.539" which there is no pushrod length in that I would have to go all the way up to 6.600" which I think would be way too much.  If I went with the 0.080" wall thickness pushrods I can get them in 6.500" as well as 6.550".

But from what I was reading on another Ford forum from 2008, they said find ideal length through half lift method and then back it off one size down for a street engine that you would lose a little lift but the loss of lift wouldnt hinder your performance that you would notice it but it would also go a long way to improving longevity of the valve train.

Many want a contact path to be done but I cant do that cause I have a few issues, the OE roller lifters I am using dont come in solid I would have to buy another brand and Id be concerned there was a difference between brands that would throw the checking off.  Many say you can turn a hydraulic to a solid by pulling the keeper and stacking a washer in the lifter making it a solid lifer.  I dont like the thought of taking a hydraulic lifter apart for this mainly cause it bothers me that damage could be done modifying the lifter like that and then subjecting it to full valve spring pressure to create a contact patch.

I am at a loss cause I thought this could be done via math, that is basically how engines were designed and setup via math, this is basically geometry which I dont remember my geometry class so it doesnt help me but surely there is a way to get the right length without having to go through the trouble of modifying this or that to get a contact patch.  It seems like if you do the half lift method it provides the narrowest contact patch through the motion of base circle through full lift.  If I go with the OE length pushrod then it wouldnt be ideal it would actually provide a wide contact path that covers 2/3 the width of the valve tip.

Also the 6.25" hydraulic roller pushrod length I am unsure if that is with or without roller rockers as I believe the Cobra 302 with the roller rockers on the GT40 heads were stud mount roller rockers.  I need to find out what the length pushrod is for that, that would probably get me more in the ballpark.



On the break in, with a hydraulic flat tappet cam yes you want to run it 20 - 30 minutes on a high idle of 2,000 - 2,500 rpm to keep the lifters spinning on the cam during break in.  With a hydraulic roller cam there is no high idle break in as the lifters dont spin on the cam, the lifters are locked in position via a dog bone retainer and the roller tip rolls over the cam lobe.  That is why I decided to build a later model 5.0L roller block as the roller camshaft is superior to the hydraulic flat tappet.  You can reuse the lifters and not have to worry about putting them in the same hole like you do with a flat tappet that has broken into specific lobes.  Ive also seen roller cams with 500,000 miles on them and still look like new due to how little wear they see with the roller lifter rolling across the lobe vs metal on metal sliding with a small cushion of oil between the pieces.

[Rusty_S85]

I tried the 2/3 lift method which is gaining in popularity from all I read yesterday and last night into early this morning online.

With the 2/3 lift method I leveled the valve spring horizontal on my engine stand and installed the rocker arm till the line I drew between the center of the roller tip pin and the center of the pivot pin was level.  I then turned the polynut down 7 turns (math states 6.92 turns so I rounded up)  This gave me a 6.3125" length pushrod.  I didnt bother doing the exhaust cause exhaust side would be 7 turns as well to retain one length of pushrod as it is 7.22 turns on exhaust.

The OE length 6.25" plus 0.100" that I was looking at last night to bring the pushrod length to the intake side slightly is 6.35" which is about where the 2/3 lift method puts me.  6.3125" plus 0.039" headgasket thickness would put me at 6.3515" length pushrod so downing the size to 6.35" would be what I would have to do.  Im sure if I did it exact to 6.92 turns roughly it would give me 6.35" even and on the exhaust side to do 7.22 turns exact I bet it would put me around 6.358" or so which means I still would have to go down to 6.35" as going to 6.40" would be too much of a jump.

Many are telling me I should have the head torqued down and have the headgasket installed but finding basic pushrod length I dont see where that is required.  Headgasketed are measured in compressed thickness meaning how thick they are when torqued down that is 0.039" and the head sitting flush on the block not bolted down is not going to throw the length off enough to make it change the length a whole 0.050".

So for me the question is do I go 6.35" or do I go 6.40".  If I go 6.40" it would put me a little closer to the 1/2 lift method but with 6.35" it would put me fairly close to the 2/3 lift method.  The 2/3 lift method is from what I have read to give a slightly wider contact patch over the 1/2 lift but will drastically reduced the pushrod length more to OE length.  The 2/3 lift also means at 2/3 lift the rocker arm is level and that last 1/3 lift would be more or less a straighter push down so as the valve opens to max lift and the spring starts to hit its max spring pressure the rocker arm is moving more up and down at least that is how I am understanding it.

Now I could take and wait till I get the headgasket in and torque the head down and get a proper measurement with a single pushrod in 6.35" and 6.40" length to see what gives me the best contact patch.  Problem with this is I have hydraulic roller lifters and without setting preload first and then spinning the oil pump to pump the lifters up there is no real way to get proper contact patch pattern.  The way I am building this engine I cant pour oil in it first cause then I have to drain 6 quarts out so I can turn the engine upside down as I was going to primer and paint the whole engine after its been fully assembled so my AFR aluminum heads and Edelbrock aluminum intake will be all painted Ford Corporate blue.

But to show what I am looking at the following picture is showing the two witness marks where the roller tip is sitting at on the base circle with no lifter preload.  The upper most line towards the intake side is with the 2/3 lift method giving me 6.3125" length.  The lower most line towards the exhaust side is with the 1/2 lift method giving me 6.4875" length.


As can be seen with the 2/3 lift I am fairly close to the center of the valve.  With the 1/2 lift method I am a little further from the center of the valve to the exhaust side.  If I go with a 6.40" length pushrod the witness mark would without a doubt be more or less right over or just off to the exhaust side of center of the valve.

So I have to make a decision on which length I want to go with.  6.35" would put me with a wider contact patch from what I understand and the 6.40" would give me a narrower contact patch.



On the flip side I installed the 302H Ford Performance roller lifters after they soaked over night in Driven 10w40 break in oil.  I installed the lifters with the oil inlet hole on top towards the center of the engine just as I feel thats how it should be.  I dont think it really matters though.  I also installed the dog bones and the spider which required a bit of effort to press down on to get the 1/4" bolts in place.  I did not put any loctite on these bolts as the Ford Performance roller lifter retainer kit I bought has lock washers for the 1/4" bolts.  I could not find any official torque spec for these bolts but saw it stated by one individual on a ford forum that spec is like 60 to 120 inch pounds.  I torqued to 100 inch pounds with my 1/4" torque wrench.



I also dug out my magnetic dial indicator since I had nothing more I could do today and decided to check the cam thrust just to put my mind at ease.  Even with the assembly lube I was getting 0.002" cam thrust which I am currently looking for the official spec online.  I saw one mention in a forum the spec range is 0.0001" to 0.007" service range with a 0.009"+ replacement.  I do see that I have some thrust which is good cause without the dial indicator I could not feel any movement but the dial indicator proved to me there is some movement just not enough to physically see or feel.





So as of right now I still need finalize my decision on pushrod length either 6.35" or 6.40" in 0.120" wall thickness.  I also need to check the 1467 header gasket set I have on AFR`s website to see if its a recommended one for my AFR head cause the ports are quite a bit smaller on the gaskets.  I already decided to not use my 1011-1 0.041" thick headgaskets in favor of the 1011-2 0.039" thick even though the engine builder I know told me not to run the copper fire ring and to use the steel fire ring which is only offered in the 0.041" thickness.

[Gary Lewis]

I hope you aren't wanting my input on pushrod length as I don't know.  I understand what you are doing, but don't know which approach to bank on.  

However, I applaud your thoroughness and your attention to detail.  You are considering every option and doing a good job of researching things.  

Glad the cam is actually moving.  Otherwise it would seem like a bearing might be too tight.

Anyway, keep up the good work.  We are following along.

[Rusty_S85]

Gary Lewis wrote

I hope you aren't wanting my input on pushrod length as I don't know.  I understand what you are doing, but don't know which approach to bank on.  

However, I applaud your thoroughness and your attention to detail.  You are considering every option and doing a good job of researching things.  

Glad the cam is actually moving.  Otherwise it would seem like a bearing might be too tight.

Anyway, keep up the good work.  We are following along.

lol lot of it is just me rambling on that helps me to figure things out some time through making a post.

I did how ever thought of checking Cranes still existing PDF files online for their catalog and look up the recommended push rods for my camshaft along with recommend rocker arms which from all my reading all rocker arms out there are pretty much copies of each other in geometry so that shouldnt really matter.

I found 36625-16 as one number and 95608-16 as another number with the following specs.

36625-16 : Crane Crhomoly 5/16", 0.062" wall thickness, 6.375" length, Stock +0.117" (86-96 302 and 302HO w/ Factory Hydraulic Roller Lifters and Crane Aluminum rocker arms, heat treated, heavy wall)
95608-16 : Crane Pro-Series 5/16", 0.080" wall thickness, 6.40" length (this one is just one of their generic fits anything pushrod with no specific listed application.)

So I am still in the same boat I was in as of yesterday.  6.35" length vs 6.40" length.  Part of me wants to just go with 6.40" length but the big question is, if its not right is it going to cause me problems down the road when it comes to longevity and is it going to drastically reduce my max lift at the valve.  I still can order custom 6.50" pushrods in 0.120" wall thickness or I could just simply go with the 0.080" wall thickness and get them off the shelf for 6.50" length but I just dont know if I need 0.120" or if I can get by with 0.080".  From my understanding stronger is better but many state a 0.120" wall thickness pushrod isnt much stronger than a 0.080" pushrod and that a better upgrade for strength is going from 5/16" to 3/8".

part of me thinks really thinks I should go with the 6.40" length just as it would put me a little closer to the 1/2 lift method and would reduce my sweep pattern more so than the 6.35" length.  I cant exactly buy a 6.375" pushrod as they are in 0.050" increments and that was some custom length rod made just by Crane.  But I could run the 6.40" that was the alternative.  6.40" would put me right on the center line of the valve and 6.50" would put me just off the center line outboard.

I just dont know what to do in this case cause I can go 6.35" length in 0.080" or 0.120" wall thickness, I can go 6.40" in 0.080" or 0.120" wall thickness, or I can go 6.50" in 0.080" wall thickness or custom length ordered in 0.120" wall thickness.

Aside from that I found another problem, the header gasket I bought I checked it its a 1467 gasket and it is not the recommended gasket for my AFR 165 CC heads.  They recommend the 1415 gasket with a 1.480" port height x 1.250" port width compared to the 1467 gaskets which are 1.350" port height x 1.05" port width.  This is something I noticed yesterday when I held it up to the head and saw how much smaller the ports in the gasket was than the head.  These are for stock port style heads while the 1415 is for small race port style heads.  So as of now I dont even know if my Hedman 89470 street shorty headers will fit these heads properly.  It states stock profile cylinder head which this is a stock profile and it states the port shape is square but doesnt give me the dimensions of the port.  There is a listing for replacement hedman gasket but no spec on the opening but one guy left a review saying its a great gasket for hard to seal aluminum heads at 1.5" square to 1 5/8" headers.  Sounds like the opening on the gasket is 1 1/2" square which would be bigger than the felpro gasket I need to get.

Biggest issue for me now I think is deciding on pushrod length the rest I can handle when the time comes.

Manley Chromoly Swedged End pushrods came recommended on Scorpions website for 0.120" wall thickness.

I can get them in the following sizes.

25207-16 : Manley Chromoly Swedged End, 5/16" diameter, 0.120" wall thickness, 6.40" length : $224.99 set
25206-16 : Manley Chromoly Swedged End, 5/16" diameter, 0.120" wall thickness, 6.35" length : $223.99 set
25650-16 : Manley Chromoly Swedged End, 5/16" diameter, 0.080" wall thickness, 6.50" length : $141.99 set.

I really need to wait till Manley gets back with me via email if they even will cause I asked them pertaining to this, maybe they will tell me on sub eight inch length pushrods the 0.080" wall thickness would be well over enough to avoid any kind of flex.