Fuel Injection upgrade

[Rusty_S85]

Getting a little closer on my build.  Just placed my order from Creb Engineering on ebay for my 306 short block with hyper pistons and that should be here mid May.

Once that get here I can start assembly finding out what length pushrods I need to order, then start fabricating up some annealed stainless steel hardline for my EFI on the engine.

I still have to order the fuel tank and I am still on the hunt for a reasonably priced NOS 85-86 fuel tank sender since I will be junking the lift pump in place of a Walbro 255 LPH fuel pump which I also have to still get.  Also have to get the fuse box I posted above so I can make up the custom harness for my EFI.  I also have to still source a 3G alternator as I dont trust the 1G to be enough with the EFI thrown into the mix and I feel it will be easier to mock everything up while on the engine stand.  I also have to pick up the stainless steel 3/8 hardline for the frame from Inline so I can repurpose it for my EFI feed line.

Aside from that I still have to send the fuel tank out to get a baffle welded in so I wont have to worry about laying down when around 1/4 tank due to fuel slosh.  I also need to ship my headers out to get them ceramic coated as well as ship out my distributor to the expert up in Washington state to recurve it on his sun machine.

I know there is something else I am forgetting that I will probably remember after the fact.

[Gary Lewis]

Sounds like a good plan.  

On the headers, I had mine coated in OKC by Jet Hot.  They spent a lot of time consulting with me and did a good job on the coating.

As for the 3G, you've seen the spreadsheet on our 3G Upgrade page that provides some source info?

[Rusty_S85]

Gary Lewis wrote

Sounds like a good plan.  

On the headers, I had mine coated in OKC by Jet Hot.  They spent a lot of time consulting with me and did a good job on the coating.

As for the 3G, you've seen the spreadsheet on our 3G Upgrade page that provides some source info?

I talked with Jet Hot and I think I am going to go with Cradin Industries here in Borne, Tx.  For a pair of shorty V8 headers the price is $185 for the coating or $168 for black ceramic coating.  Im torn between the black and the Zinc Zirconia.  I was informed people wanting that cast look go with the Zinc Zirconia for restorations.  I just am not sure as it is a greenish tinge to the grey color and not fully sure if its just the camera or not.

This is a pair of headers they coated in the Zinc Zirconia


This is their black which looks like any other black ceramic coating.


The place in Washington state I found actually has a bare stainless steel color but shipping round trip makes it quite pricy.

On the 3G yep, I have poured over it numerous days, weeks, months as well as numerous notes.  I already have my soft start regulator mine is the longest 8s I believe it is delay since I am going to be running the larger 130A 3G on a single V belt.  I already modified an OE cast iron alternator bracket by cutting the ears off for the air pump I painted it in a eastwood zinc phosphate charcoal grey color for a OE like look but I think I will strip it off and get some eastwood underhood black in 2K and spray it.  Only thing is I am fixing to open up my parts and illustration guide to seek a OE part number for the alternator adjusting bracket to see what my options are out there since it has to be flattened out to fit the 3G ear.

I also have to sit down and try to get help from Goodyear to find the proper belt for my 3G conversion as I am looking at their sticky belts that have a lower slip rate.

~Update~

I remember what else I need to do.  I need to get another dual roller timing set as the one I got has a bunch of casting flash and I was told by too many people to not use a Comp Cam timing set.  I also need to get a 50oz imbalance damper and flexplate.  I am leaning towards the Dayco/powerbond street performance damper since it goes supposedly goes up to 50* which if that is true it would make life easy on me if I ever decide to toss my DSII ignition system in favor of full computer control timing.

Another thing I forgot to mention was I am putting my aircleaner search on hold for now and I am going to be buying some of those AlumiWeld rods to use a propane torch to weld my aluminum aircleaner back up where the sides are all split then I can just simply sand and shoot with some aluminum colored paint.  At least I can get my truck back on the road and then later on decide if I want to do the dual snorkel setup or not.

[Gary Lewis]

Looks like you have it mapped out.

But on the air cleaner, I think the aluminum cleaners cracked due to lack of support of the snorkel.  W/o the hot air tube the snorkel is hung way out there and vibrates from the engine's pulses.  The aluminum can't take that and cracks.

Not sure welding it up is going to fix that, so you might consider some kind of support.

[Rusty_S85]

Gary Lewis wrote

Looks like you have it mapped out.

But on the air cleaner, I think the aluminum cleaners cracked due to lack of support of the snorkel.  W/o the hot air tube the snorkel is hung way out there and vibrates from the engine's pulses.  The aluminum can't take that and cracks.

Not sure welding it up is going to fix that, so you might consider some kind of support.

Problem is my aircleaner is split/cracked around the whole perimeter I think it was over tightening that caused it more so than just the weight of the snorkel.  The weight of the snorkel probably did make some of the cracks but what I was thinking of doing was removing the sheet metal screws through the snorkel and rivet it back in with the proper 1/4" rivets but I was thinking of either cutting out a plate to fit on the inside or using some large fender washers with a 1/4" hole in the middle to help spread the weight of the snorkel out over a larger area.

As far as the hot air tube goes, I am thinking about installing it.  I got the hedman clamp on hot air stove kit as I had planned on running the 600 cfm summit carb.  But even though I am going to the holley EFI I still think it would help sell the OE stock look I am going for by retaining that even if I deactivate the vacuum motor.

[Rusty_S85]

Been doing some browsing at fuel tanks, Im still set on the 85-86 fuel tank but the lack of baffling is bothering me.  The tank appears to have a step down to the center to help fuel pool in this low spot but accelerating, braking, or even turning could pull the fuel away from the pickup when down around 1/4 tank which for me I always fill up at 1/4 tank but ideally Id like to be safe to 1/8 tank in the off chance that I cant get to the gas station before 1/8 tank.

Now with that said I still havent contacted Texas Auto Gear to see how much they would charge to put baffling in my tank if they would even do it in the first place.  I have been looking at photos of the tank it appears that I might be able to take some flat pieces of steel with the sides and bottom bent at a ninety degree angle to weld to the bottom of the tank and place these pieces at the start of the steps for the sump with openings cut in this piece.  This would help restrict the flow to slow the fuel slosh down and hopefully keep me from stalling or stumbling or going lean when accelerating or braking.  Problem is I dont know if I would want to cut the top of the fuel tank open for fear of it weakening the top of the tank which is where it clamps up against the tank mounts.  I could probably reach my hand in through the opening but then it poses the problem of getting a proper weld then there is the whole risk of welding and not blowing a hole through the tank.

I have been throwing around the idea of the Holley HydraMat which will most likely prevent the fuel slosh issue for me down to 1/8 of a tank but I have seen two things said for the expected lifespan of this prefilter/sock.  One is 5 to 10 years and another stated the HydraMat is capable of a life expectancy in a typical street car of 6 years or 60,000 miles.  I dont know if I will want to be dropping my fuel tank every 6 years to replace a $180 HydraMat.  So I am really leaning towards doing something with baffling to prevent this fuel slosh problem at low fuel level that wont require me to drop my fuel tank every few years.

If anyone has any ideas I would be open to it.  I found lots of universal and aftermarket tanks and modules but they are either way too pricy for me at $500+ or they will require getting away from the OE components that I am trying to use as much of as possible for ease of sourcing replacements locally.

[Gary Lewis]

I think you are trying to solve a problem you don't know that you'll have.  I'd go ahead and install a stock tank and find out if you have the problem before worrying about solving it.

I know that's not my normal mode of operation, but in this case there's no obvious solution.  And dropping the tank to make a change isn't all that onerous.  So I think I'd go with stock components and see if you have a problem.

[ArdWrknTrk]

Gary Lewis wrote

I think you are trying to solve a problem you don't know that you'll have.
I know that's not my normal mode of operation, but in this case there's no obvious solution.  And dropping the tank to make a change isn't all that onerous.  So I think I'd go with stock components and see if you have a problem.

I'm quoting this for posterity!  

[Gary Lewis]

For the record, I'd not had a single sip of my 1st cup of Java when I typed that.  But now, half a cup in and with the light of day actually appearing, I still agree.  

[85lebaront2]

Rusty, I have 1990 tanks on my 1986 truck (filler necks were a huge improvement) there is no baffling in the tanks of any kind, just the FDM that sits in the approximate center of each tank. If it were me, I would use the factory system for 1986 with the low pressure in-tank pumps and the reservoir/switching valve on the frame, and then the high pressure pump for your system. I have not yet run into a problem of fuel starvation, but I will switch to the rear tank if the front one is low and I will be on an extended up or down grade stretch. I did that even with the carburetor and hot fuel package, as the long 19 gal tank can easily get low enough that the gas will not reach the center.

If you are real worried about that issue, get a NASCAR style fuel cell.

[grumpin]

You guys are funny!

I agree, Rusty, I don’t have EFI, but have the electric pumps with the hot fuel handling. I would lose prime on my rear tank in a sweeping right turn.

I had two problems, one the connector for the oil pressure switch for the fuel pump relay was bad.

Two, my fuel pump was going out. With a new pump it hasn’t done it.

Like Gary, I would try it first.

[Rusty_S85]

Gary Lewis wrote

I think you are trying to solve a problem you don't know that you'll have.  I'd go ahead and install a stock tank and find out if you have the problem before worrying about solving it.

I know that's not my normal mode of operation, but in this case there's no obvious solution.  And dropping the tank to make a change isn't all that onerous.  So I think I'd go with stock components and see if you have a problem.

I can do that, I just was trying to prevent unnecessary extra work having to pull the tank a second time.  I know out of every conversion we have done at work every non EFI tank without baffling has provided stalling, hesitation and laying down below 1/2 a tank due to fuel slosh.Unless the fact that the tank is stepped like it is with a mini sump under the pump assembly will act as a baffle to keep some fuel still in the area of the pump preventing this starvation at lower fuel levels.

85lebaront2 wrote

Rusty, I have 1990 tanks on my 1986 truck (filler necks were a huge improvement) there is no baffling in the tanks of any kind, just the FDM that sits in the approximate center of each tank. If it were me, I would use the factory system for 1986 with the low pressure in-tank pumps and the reservoir/switching valve on the frame, and then the high pressure pump for your system. I have not yet run into a problem of fuel starvation, but I will switch to the rear tank if the front one is low and I will be on an extended up or down grade stretch. I did that even with the carburetor and hot fuel package, as the long 19 gal tank can easily get low enough that the gas will not reach the center.

If you are real worried about that issue, get a NASCAR style fuel cell.

You dont have the fuel reservoir on the frame do you?  I am trying to avoid that by having just a single high pressure fuel pump in the tank.

I am starting to wonder if maybe the stepped design of the fuel tank with the sump where the fuel pump sits at acts as a sort of baffle be restricting fuel flow to the rear or front under acceleration or braking at lower levels.  Not seeking for race car fuel control just dont want the truck to suck air and lay down and run lean on me when I am accelerating, braking, or turning at a 1/4 tank.  That is my biggest concern.

grumpin wrote

You guys are funny!

I agree, Rusty, I don’t have EFI, but have the electric pumps with the hot fuel handling. I would lose prime on my rear tank in a sweeping right turn.

I had two problems, one the connector for the oil pressure switch for the fuel pump relay was bad.

Two, my fuel pump was going out. With a new pump it hasn’t done it.

Like Gary, I would try it first.

I probably will cause I probably will burn through the fuel tank trying to weld it myself and I just dont know how I could cut the tank open to get it done right and ensure there is no leaks or weakening of the fuel tank.

[85lebaront2]

No, 1989 was the last year for the reservoir on the frame and separate high pressure pump. Mine has the FDMs (Fuel Distribution Modules) which act as a reserve system. Here is a picture of the internals of an FDM.


My Chrysler uses a cup in the tank with the return from the rail connected to the side making a jet to fill the cup till it overflows.

[Rusty_S85]

Ah ok that makes sense.  I know looking up to 95 the tanks appear the same exterior wise with the stepped sump in the middle bottom of the tank.

I have been thinking about just a couple fairly short walls that I can tack weld it into the tank through the large sending unit opening.  Thinking anything that slows the slosh down would help to maintain fuel level in the sump of the tank.  I actually found some aluminum sheet steel in 24 ga that is preforated with thousands of small holes which would work for me but didnt see any in steel, I did find some plain sheet steel real cheap in galvanized steel which I am not sure how hard that would be to tack weld but if I can do it I was thinking just a 5 inch or so tall plate tacked to one of the steps of the sump with some cut outs to allow some flow.  I could do the front and rear myself for under $20 myself it just wouldnt be a legit OE baffle how ever which is typically a tray with a metal hard line welded through the baffle to allow a controlled flow in and out.  Something like that would require cutting the tank apart to do properly.

Only other thing I thought of is if there was a way to pop rivet everything through the bottom of the tank but this would have to require a sealing pop rivet which I dont know if any fuel safe options are out there.

I can also run it like it is and see how it is but the down side to this is once I put fuel in the tank I basically will have to buy another fuel tank to modify.

[85lebaront2]

Rusty, a couple of questions. I assume the Holley Sniper uses their pump. I don't know what pressure/volume it needs but, some thoughts (a) could the Holley pump be installed into a Ford 1990 up FDM? (b) would the Ford pump supply adequate pressure/volume for the Holley System?

If both of those are no, then, can you insert a decent size can into a 1990 up tank through the FDM access? Using the return line to siphon fuel into the can so that it is overflowing even with a low fuel level. This is what Chrysler did when they introduced EFI in 1983 as it only required a change to the bottom of the tank, the plastic reservoir was crimped to the tank bottom and an extra access hole was added for the electric pump, the same sender as the carbureted system was retained and the fuel return is there. It goes through a check valve on the side of the reservoir where it picks up fuel to overflow the reservoir. The can could be loaded into position with springs pushing against the top of the tank.

Some of the guys with modified Turbo engines are using a Walbro 255 GPH pump in the stock hanger. My static fuel pressure is 55 psi rising under boost to 70 psi.

[Rusty_S85]

85lebaront2 wrote

Rusty, a couple of questions. I assume the Holley Sniper uses their pump. I don't know what pressure/volume it needs but, some thoughts (a) could the Holley pump be installed into a Ford 1990 up FDM? (b) would the Ford pump supply adequate pressure/volume for the Holley System?

If both of those are no, then, can you insert a decent size can into a 1990 up tank through the FDM access? Using the return line to siphon fuel into the can so that it is overflowing even with a low fuel level. This is what Chrysler did when they introduced EFI in 1983 as it only required a change to the bottom of the tank, the plastic reservoir was crimped to the tank bottom and an extra access hole was added for the electric pump, the same sender as the carbureted system was retained and the fuel return is there. It goes through a check valve on the side of the reservoir where it picks up fuel to overflow the reservoir. The can could be loaded into position with springs pushing against the top of the tank.

Some of the guys with modified Turbo engines are using a Walbro 255 GPH pump in the stock hanger. My static fuel pressure is 55 psi rising under boost to 70 psi.

Holley gives with their sniper kits a generic frame mounted pump.  I didnt buy the kit with fuel pump as I have seen way too many people stating these supplied frame mounted pumps failed with in the first year.

The pumps how ever Holley states they need 50 psi and 255 lph/67gph.  Realistically the instructions states 45 to 55 psi with 50 psi being ideal.  Why I selected the Corvette Fuel Filter that I have put up for my filter/regulator the built in regulator is 49.5 PSI so basically 50 psi.  Pump I have picked out initially is the GSS342BX Walbro with a 11mm inlet for $89.99 which would accept the Hydramat I am looking at the 3" x 15" for some $180.  If the Hydramat would last 10 years for me I would consider just doing that but still $180 every 10 years just seems pricy compared to regular socks lasting till the electric pump finally fails.

If Dakota Digital would release the RTX Retro I could go with a FDM tank and pump/sender and go into the calibration and input the FDM sender specs to make the gauge read right.  Might be something I upgrade to down the road.

Holley sells a retrofit fuel pump/sender assembly for OEM fuel tanks that has a pivoting fuel pump on a OE like sender with the Holly Hydramat for pickup.  Thats why part of me wonders about longevity but no one has said how lone they truly last in a street vehicle, Ive seen Holley listed 5 to 10 year life span and one magazine article stated 6 years or 60,000 miles for an average vehicle

[85lebaront2]

Ok, the Walbro some of the Chrysler Turbo guys are using might do what you need. Let me see what I can find on PNs and detailed specs. It might be 255 L/Hr then. Like I said, my static pressure is 55 psi.

[Rusty_S85]

85lebaront2 wrote

Ok, the Walbro some of the Chrysler Turbo guys are using might do what you need. Let me see what I can find on PNs and detailed specs. It might be 255 L/Hr then. Like I said, my static pressure is 55 psi.

I was looking at the 90-96 pump modules apparently there was a 255 L/Hr pump but I cant find it on rockauto found it on amazon under part number HFP-A27H.  Its stated its used on the lightning trucks.

Rockauto lists a HP1060A as a high performance fuel pump for the 90-96 pump modules but it states max flow is 57.5 gph and min of 48.3 gph which is less than the 255l/hr which is 67 gph.  Im sure 10gph less than recommended by holley would cause a problem, but it would limit the power the sniper is capable of supporting and it will require tweaking the computer via laptop to change the settings on the fuel pump.

Right now I am really entertaining the whole hydramat and seeing how long I can get before I need to replace it.  Maybe buy two keep one put up so when the truck starts acting up I can swap it out and make note of how long.  At least this wouldnt require modifying the tank risking fuel leaks, it wont require installing a newer tank/module with a different pump rating than what Holley recommends along with having to wait till Dakota Digital releases the RTX retro cluster for our trucks which would easily open up newer fuel pump modules.

[Rusty_S85]

For those that have the Eastwood vice mount flaring tool, they offer a AN flare turret and die set for some $130 to convert your inverted flare tool to a AN flare tool.  I found on amazon when looking that Inline Tube has one now as well, identical in looks just the Inline Tube logo on it but will work with the Eastwood tool as its all the same and it was under $100 to boot as well.  So I ordered that to have it on hand for when I start bending my fuel line for my Sniper Stealth.

So to restate the fuel system this is my current plans with some tweaks from the original plan.

I will still be getting the Inline Tube SFRF8001 Stainless steel main fuel line for Ford trucks 2wd long beds in 3/8" size.  This will be longer than I need for my short bed flareside truck but all I need is the forward part of the hardline.  Hopefully the OE 5/16" fuel line clips can be used to hold the 3/8" fuel line as I will be carefully pulling my OE 5/16" fuel line and placing it up in storage.

The bulk tubing I am looking at is the same CL3820 which is Inline Tubes Annealed Stainless steel tubing coil in 3/8" size in a 20ft length.  Also stated its 0.028" wall thickness which I am waiting to hear back from Inline on what the pressure rating of this tubing is.  Im pretty confident that it is in excess of the 60 PSI my fuel system will be operating at.

Where my plan is changing is I found that Inline also sells stainless spring wraps that goes on hardlines in high risk areas where the hardline may rub.  Im looking at their SID38-8 which is a 8ft length of 3/8" stainless steel spring wrap.  I think this would be great to put on the hardline along the front of the engine where it will be close to the factory powersteering pump bracket and the dealer AC compressor bracket.  It wont touch as I will make sure it has some clearance I feel safer having it as an added layer of defense to protect my fuel system against failures especially failures that could dump fuel over hot exhaust starting a fire.

Plan for this currently is to shape the hardline as close to OE as possible but I know I will have to make tweaks in the routing to account for changes between OE and how the system will be now.  My idea is still to rigidly mount the fuel line to one of the bolts holding the block off plate to the timing cover.  This would keep the fuel line from moving as well as having a stable point for the rubber flex hose between the main line and the engine.  Im still looking at ideas for a plumbing point that looks like a mechanical fuel pump,  I think it would be way easier to have a simulated fuel pump to hook the lines up to that just simply flows the fuel from one port to the other.  Only option I know of to do this would be to buy some cheapie mechanical aftermarket pump and gut it but I fear doing this as a mechanical fuel pump could fail in such a way that fuel is pumped into the engine through the lever.  That would be a disaster with an electric fuel pump pumping out 255 LPH.  I would have to look at photos of some holley or edelbrock mechanical fuel pumps on their internal layout there is a possibility of linking the inlet and outlet ports via a hardline to eliminate the risk of leaking internally into the engine but not sure how one would do that before bolting the two halves back together unless you chop out the under side to reach the points but then that negates the purpose of looking OE.

I think I will just go with a mounting clamp just havent decided what kind of clamp would look good.  I still how ever have time for that, I havent received my short block yet and I still got a lot of work ahead of me before I am at a finished running product.  Then there is the next big question which is the brakes, Do I trust them after sitting a few years or redo them.  Im thinking trust them cause when I started driving the truck daily it spent more time sitting than driving and it never had a problem.  I also need to get in touch with who will be doing my tuning and see what he recommends for the tuning on if I should do it now or wait till after I do the transmission and axle ratio change.

[85lebaront2]

Rusty, if the mechanical pump is just going to be a dummy, a couple of thoughts. Ford had a pump with an integral canister filter (it was replaceable) that might be a possibility. On using a dummy for fuel to pass through, if you can find one of the older pumps that screw together it would be easy to gut it, replace the diaphragm with a plate and gaskets and if it has the telltale "weep" hole, block it so oil won't come out.