Dad's Truck Build

[85lebaront2]

Interesting, the ones on Darth have the bolt heads on the front side and nuts on the back. If I remember correctly, the right side can only be assembled that way due to the strange design of the crew cab steering linkage.

[Gary Lewis]

I'm just going from this on Page 13 here: Steering & Suspension/Front Suspension and then the Instructions and the General Suspension Service tabs.

[Steve83]

Gary Lewis wrote

Don't think I've ever seen one bent like that.

The PO dragged the truck around with his tractor by that tie rod.  Come to think of it; I guess that tie rod is still on the truck.

85lebaront2 wrote

...the strange design of the crew cab steering linkage.

How is it different from the X-cab, std. cab, or Bronco linkage?

[85lebaront2]

Steve, it has to do with the steering angle, my inside front, in whichever direction I am turning gets very close to 90° to the frame. The right side inner tie rod is unique to the crew cab and uses a stepped adjusting sleeve as the inner rod threaded end is bigger than the outer threaded end. The left side is more normal.

FWIW, the right inner is one expensive piece. Last time I had to replace it I was all set to order a Motorcraft with a lifetime warranty, and just when I put the order in at the local dealer, it came up as NLA.

[Gary Lewis]

Got some testing done using the shop crane today. First, here's the engine in position, although the stands are still on. And, by the way, the flexplate is on and torqued down, and the engine plate is ahead of it.

Then the question was if I could somehow get the shop crane's legs past those of the engine stand and get in position to pick up the tranny. The answer is yes, as shown below.

But instead of using the load leveler I'm going to use ratchet straps, although we'll add a couple more than those shown for safety on Monday. The issue is clearance. Looks like with the straps in the configuration shown I can get the boom 15" from the vent on top of the tranny and that will give 4" of clearance between the bottom of the tranny and the top of the engine and 4" from the boom to the firewall.

Oh, note that the rear mount is installed and torqued down/up.

So, what does the to-do list look like now? Green is done, and red is to-do.

1. Install the transmission mount on the transmission and torque the fasteners
2. Install the flexplate on the engine, torquing the bolts down - after ensuring that the engine plate is already on the engine.
3. Pick up the engine and position it in front of the truck, and put it back on the floor - with the spacers under the legs so the pan doesn't hit the floor. (The ram on the shop crane leaks and it'll be on the floor the next morning if I don't put it down myself.)
4. Roll the transmission on its engine stand to the side and out of the way, ready to be picked up.
5. Pick up engine, remove stands, and bolt on the mounts, torquing them down to 50-70 lb-ft.
6. Trundle forward w/the crane, lay the engine in place, and run the nuts on the mounts down finger tight and then prop the engine up from whatever end it needs it to be stable
7. Roll back, install the straps, pick up the transmission, insert the input shaft into the transmission ensuring that it seats in the splines and is lubed for the seals. Then install the torque converter into the transmission, with lube in it, ensuring that the three "steps" are felt and that the hub of the torque converter is ~1/4" behind the mating surface of the bellhousing. And strap the torque converter in place so it can't fall off as the whole thing is lifted into place.
8. Trundle forward to lay the transmission down behind the engine. Making sure there is some lube on the pilot of the torque converter, mate the transmission to the engine and the torque converter to the flexplate. Install the transmission/engine bolts. Make sure that there's a bit of slack where the torque converter isn't in a bind.
9. Torque the flexplate nuts to 20-34 lb-ft, and torque the transmission/engine bolts to 40-50 lb-ft
10. With the transmission still held by the shop crane, raise/lower the transmission and move the crossmember until the transmission mount's studs will engage with the crossmember and install the nuts finger tight on the studs. (Uh oh! What nuts??? Looks like I only have one of the two powder coated.)
11. Use a jack under the crossmember, suitably padded, and ease the transmission down onto the crossmember. Square up the crossmember with the frame to find the right position, including the brace, then mark the hole positions. (Note that the rivets and bolts for the radius arm bracket are the same distance from the front of the frame, so use them for reference.)
12. Remove the crossmember, supporting the transmission with a jack, and drill the holes. Paint the holes, twice, and let the paint dry.
13. Install the crossmember, lower the transmission onto it, and torque all the nuts/bolts down: crossmember/frame to 48-66 lb-ft; transmission mount/crossmember to 50-70 lb-ft; and engine mounts/frame to 54-74 lb-ft.
14. Install the transfer case using either the shop crane or just carry it by hand, coat the gasket with Ultra Gray, and torque the bolts down to 25-43 lb-ft.
15. Smear the mating surfaces of the cab mounts with the special grease.
16. Lay the quilt over the front of the bed, and lower the cab onto the frame, making sure the mount bolts are aligned. Tighten the fasteners finger tight. (They'll be tighted appropriately when John aligns the cab with the bed.

[Steve83]

Gary Lewis wrote

...the stands are still on.

If you whip something like this together (even without the dolly) out of some scrap lumber, you can bolt on the engine mounts:

[Gary Lewis]

I don't think changing out the stands for the mounts will be a problem, Steve.  We'll just dangle the engine from the shop crane, use the battery-powered impact to remove the stands, and then install the mounts.  And with one of us holding the engine it should be easy enough for the other to torque the bolts to 50-70 lb-ft.

But thanks for the suggestion.  

[Gary Lewis]

Must remember: Two steps forward and one back is still progress.  Two steps forward and one back is still progress.  Two steps forward and one back is still progress..........  

Ok, so the best laid plans of mice and men.  Things didn't go exactly as they were planned.  Close, but no cigar.

As you know, today was a big day.  My brother came down to help me install the engine, transmission, and transfer case and then put the cab back on the truck.  Well, we got the engine installed, and here he is guiding it home:




And, here he is doing the same on the tranny:




Then the "fun" started.  We got the transmission lined up and connected to the engine, but it wouldn't pull up tight to the engine w/o binding such that you couldn't turn the engine over.  After installing 6" G5 bolts as guides, and a jack stand on a skate, as shown below, we were able to pull the tranny back and inspect things, slide it forward to test, slide it back, ......  We did that drill multiple times until we proved that the adapter is the problem.



And, the issue with the adapter is twofold.  First, on the front side of it the recess that goes over the rear of the crank wasn't machined cleanly enough.  In the pic below you can see that there is a bit of a ledge at the end of the arrow, and that was keeping the front face of the adapter from mating fully with the rear face of the crank.  So we put the adapter in the lathe and bored it slightly deeper and cleaner, which allowed it to mate correctly with the back of the crank.




But, that still didn't allow the tranny to mate with the engine.  So we took more measurements and determined that the projection on the rear of the adapter is at least .175" too long.  In other words, we were pushing the torque converter to the rear and into the transmission, therefore binding things.



So tomorrow I'm going to spend time accurately measuring the 460 and its flexplate as well as the 400 and its flexplate, and determine what the dimensions of an adapter should be to put everything in its proper position.  Then I can modify this adapter to match those dimensions.  

[85lebaront2]

Gary, didn't the 351M/400 engines come with a C6? The E4OD converter attaches to a 460 C6 flex plate with no problems. I doubt Ford used either and adapter or special torque converter for those applications. I would research those numbers, probably in car applications. FWIW, my boss at NNS had a 1979 Lincoln with a 400 and C6.

[Nothing Special]

Gary Lewis wrote

....  In other words, we were pushing the torque converter to the rear and into the transmission, therefore binding things....

I'm no expert on this, but I think it's pretty easy to damage a torque converter doing that.  I know it's a risk if you don't get it to make the 3 "steps" going onto the trans.  I don't know what I'd recommend, but if the torque converter is damaged I'm thinking you'll want to know that before you get the trans installed.

[Gary Lewis]

Bill - Yes, the M-block used a C6. But the issue is that the M-block's crank ends about 1/4" closer to the block than the 460's. So if you put everything together w/o a spacer to move the flexplate back, there's 1/4" of slop in the system.

I want the flexplate to be exactly where the 460's flexplate would have been. That way a 460's starter is a perfect fit. And I want the pilot for the torque converter to end at the same spot as a 460's so there's no slop in the system.

Bob - We didn't tighten the bolts any where near enough to damage anything. We were very careful to check that we could turn the engine over, and when we sensed that there was a bind we stopped tightening the bolts.

I'll draw it up tomorrow and I think it will be easy to see what I'm talking about.

[85lebaront2]

Gary, my question is what did Ford do on the 351M/400 with a C6? was it a different "dished" flex plate? I thought I remembered the starters were the same as the 429/460 ones as far as depth and the weird one bolt each way design.

[Gary Lewis]

Yes, the flexplates are quite different.  Here's the table from several days ago and you can see that the flexplate is .250" different between the two engines.  And the end of the crank is .460" different in relationship with the back of the block.

Anyway, drawings with measurements will be coming tomorrow.  

[Ford F834]

Gary, no one likes a set back... especially after as much planning and preparation as you’ve done. However I think you are doing really well. Snags come up even with bone stock parts, and modifications/adaptations up that probability by at least 10x. Even commonly done swaps and mods don’t document every possible glitch, and a E4OD behind a 400 is likely an all time first no? I say bravo and carry on! Everything else looks really good, and you should have some very useful data for the next guy... is this one of Tim’s ZF adapters that you are working with or an entirely different part?

[Gary Lewis]

Thanks, Jonathan.  I appreciate the support.  And, in the almost light of day, we did make good progress yesterday.  Just not as much as I'd planned or hoped for.

The adapter is the prototype to Tim's.  I drew it up, with the help of many others, and machined it.  The fit was perfect and I told Tim about it.  He was interested so I sent him the drawings and he made several.  I wonder how many he's sold?  But it obviously isn't quite right for an E4OD swap.

As for how many E4OD's there are behind 400's, I haven't read about any others.  So this is may be another first-of-its-kind, and little glitches like this are to be expected.  I just didn't see it coming.

Hopefully later today I can figure out what the issue is and fix it.

[85lebaront2]

For your information, when I switched the E4OD into Darth, with the converter fully seated as far into the front pump as it would go, when I "married" the transmission to the engine the converter studs just penetrated the flex plate. I had enough thread protruding through the flex plate to verify a correct installation, roughly 1/8", just enough to get a new TC nut started to seat the converter.

Since the E4OD was intended as a reasonably fitted update to a C6, even though they were not used on the 400s it would seem that a 400 set up for a C6 with the original parts should accept an E4OD with no problems. The recess in the crank. or adapter has to be the correct diameter for the C6/E4OD converter snout. The actual location of the TC with the nuts tightened is approximately 3/8" forward of the full seated position, you need to allow for that. If it was mine, I would try an installation with no adapter, just the 400 flex plate and thin headed bolts attaching it. If the TC studs just enter the flex plate like this, you have the correct assembly.

Unfortunately I no longer have access to the starter nose drawings, so can't do a dimensional comparison there. I used Rock Auto's catalog, according to them, using the Motorcraft Remanufactured PNs, the 351M and the 460 take the same starter for the automatic transmissions, this tells me that there should be no need for the adapter if a C6 was to be used and since the E4OD is designed to bolt up the same as the C6 then it should not need an adapter and the later 460 PMGR starter should bolt on perfectly. One of the notes in the 1981 351 listings specifically states one threaded and one unthreaded hole.

[Gary Lewis]

Bill - I think what you are saying is that when you tighten the torque converter's retaining nuts it pulls the converter forward from the fully-seated position approximately 3/8". And that's valuable info as we noticed that the converter's studs were just coming through the flexplate, so wondered about that.

As I think about this, there are two things the spacer needs to do:

1. Put the flexplate in the correct position for the starter to mate with it. And we have two choices of starter - an M-block starter or a 460 starter. The MPC says that the 351M/400 takes a E1TF 11001—BA and the 460 takes a E1TF 11001—CA, so they are two different starters. However, I can't tell you what the difference is.
2. Put the torque converter in the right spot to mate properly with the flexplate and yet be correctly positioned with reference to the transmission's input shaft.

The thickness of the flange on the spacer determines where the flexplate is relative to the back of the block/front of the tranny. And the length of the nose of the spacer determines how far forward the torque converter can be pulled.

Thinking through it this way has helped. Thanks.

As for needing a spacer or not, let me draw it up and let's see what we think.

[85lebaront2]

What you might do, if you have an original M block starter and a 460 automatic starter, they don't need to be the PMGR, in fact the old movable pole piece might be easier to use. Attach the block plate to the block using short 7/16-14 bolts, probably only need 2 or 3, right above the starter and maybe one opposite for stability.

Then to use proper English terms, offer up the starter to it's proper mounting, using a temporary bolt and nut and short bolt, snug it with the proper spanner. After that, with the flex plate to be used stroke the starter drive into it's proper position for cranking the motor and see if the meshing of the gears is correct.

Basically do this with and without the spacer to see if you have the proper gear mesh and clearance, then work on the TC position.

[Gary Lewis]

I do have M-block and a 460 starter.  And the 460 one came off Huck with an E4OD.  But, is there a 460 auto and a 460 manual starter?  I don't see that in the MPC, but maybe I'm missing something?

Do you think the block plate is stiff enough to hold the starter w/o the tranny?

[Ray Cecil]

WOW Gary, can't wait to see it in person later this Month!!! I am getting excited!