Norwegian F250, 1984, 460, 2wd

[ArdWrknTrk]

Yes... yes it could, and is (in a stock truck)

[Gary Lewis]

From the wire colors you mentioned I think yours is wired the way the 1985 EVTM shows, and the schematics are below.

I assume that the information you gave with power on some wires in "run" was with the switch in the front position.  Correct?  But was the engine running?

1. wire is Yellow/blue band-no light: This should be the wire to the rear sending unit and shouldn't have any power in Front
2.wire is white -blinking light: This is surely the yellow/white wire from the gauge, and the blinking is due to the instrument cluster voltage regulator.  This is correct.
3. wire is blue/green-no light: Could this be the dark blue/yellow wire?  If so it should have blinking power on it.
4.wire is bli/white-continious light: If this is brown/white it should have continuous power in Front
5.wire is red-no light: This is probably orange, and it should be grounded in Front

So, with no power on any of the wires in Rear, either your tank switching valve is bad or the fuel tank selector switch in the cab is bad.  Test the switch in the cab to see.

[Papelione]

Ok

Rechecked the relays, actually the one that is spliced into is the grey one sitting besides the green relay.

The grey one has power on the small terminals in "run", and relay clicks on 12 v added to small terminals on
the relay itself.

So Inertia switch gets power, and Fuel tank selector switch relay checks out ok.

what would you do for next step?

[Gary Lewis]

You have several things that aren't right and each them require testing.  So lets start at the beginning.

First, you have an add-on fuel pump.  Why?  Is it because the rear tank's pump doesn't work?  Or the front tank's pump doesn't work?  Or both?

But the rear tank's pump can't work if the tank selector valve isn't working.  And you said there's not power on the connector to the tank selector valve in Rear.  I assume that's with the connector on the valve, right?

If there is no power to the valve then you need to test the switch in the cab.  Make sure it is working properly.  Then, if it is working properly, test the signals to the tank selector relay.

But, you said " the one that is spliced into is the grey one sitting besides the green relay".  Spliced in isn't right.  There should be nothing "spliced in".  So, can you show us a picture of the "splicing"?

[Papelione]

Hi

Gary Lewis wrote

You have several things that aren't right and each them require testing.  So lets start at the beginning.

First, you have an add-on fuel pump.  Why?  Is it because the rear tank's pump doesn't work?  Or the front tank's pump doesn't work?  Or both?

I don't know, it was like this when I bought it, didn't´t get any explanation.

But the rear tank's pump can't work if the tank selector valve isn't working.  And you said there's not power on the connector to the tank selector valve in Rear.  I assume that's with the connector on the valve, right?

That is correct, power like previously described with switch in "front", no power with switch in "rear"

If there is no power to the valve then you need to test the switch in the cab.  Make sure it is working properly.  Then, if it is working properly, test the signals to the tank selector relay.

OK, will try and test the cab switch tonight.

But, you said " the one that is spliced into is the grey one sitting besides the green relay".  Spliced in isn't right.  There should be nothing "spliced in".  So, can you show us a picture of the "splicing"?

Yes, like I wrote the two small terminals on the grey relay clicks and the connector shows power with key in "run", from this relay goes RED (spliced into from the add on fuel pump, Orange w blue stripe, pink w elk stripe, and black

Shown here below



The splice itself, large red wire I'm holding going to add on pump, rest of the wires going from grey relay to a connector and then under the truck.



Lastly, here is the add on fuel pump, with a fuseabel(spelling) link and the large red wire that is spliced into the red from the grey relay.

Does it make sense, happy to take more pictures.

/Christian

[Gary Lewis]

It sorta makes sense - they added a relay to run the added on fuel pump.  But we need to decide what it is you want to do - continue with the added-on fuel pump or go back stock.  We need to determine what shape the original wiring is in to help you make the decision.

You should have two relays from the factory: The fuel pump cutoff relay and the tank selector relay.  My fuel pump cutoff relay is the green one attached to the fender, shown below, and the tank selector relay is the gray one just to its left.  We need to see if you have both of those and if they are wired correctly.  The wiring is shown in the post above.

If their wiring has been hacked then you will need to decide what you want to do - put the wiring back or stay with the added-on pump.

[ArdWrknTrk]

If the tank selector switch was open the selector relay should default to 'rear', yet Christian has the side tank registering fuel and obviously the switching valve is pulled in for that to happen.

With the connector disconnected, which wire has continuity to (29) yl/wh at C-127?

If it's y/lb, the sender portion is on the rear (correctly)

If it's Y/DB the motor in the valve is stuck on the side tank.

[Papelione]

I have a black plastic cover marked FORD with two relays in it, placed aproximately the same place as yours



The green one (as in EVTM page 105) has a Y wire a R/Y, a BK but also a tan and a dark blue or purple with a stripe in it. It looks very stock and untouched, and should be fuel pump cutoff relay

The grey has R, O/LB, PK/BK AND BR/W and should be tank selector relay, relay looks stock, but further down the add on has been spliced to the red.

Sounds pretty good right?

[Gary Lewis]

Christian - Yes, that's good.    And you've figured out which relay is which correctly.

Given that, it should be fairly easy to remove that extra relay and go back to stock - if that is what you want to do.

[Papelione]

Ok

From a safety view, would the add on fuel pump be cut off if the inertia switch or/and oil pressure switch opens?

Im thinking the tank selector relay would loose power as intended and therefore the add on pump would´nt be getting power either? Sorry if Im stating the obvious ....

But safety first.

[Gary Lewis]

Safety is a must.  But I'm not sure I understand your drawing.  A relay needs two sources of power to work: power to the coil to pull it in, and power to pin 30 to then send on to the device it is powering.

In your drawing, is the red wire to the add-on fuel pump going to the coil or pin 30?  Or maybe both?

The source they've picked, the red power wire for the front fuel pump, is "safe" as it only gets power in Start or in Run when the inertia switch is closed and the oil pressure is up, meaning the engine is running.

[ArdWrknTrk]

Two sources of power and a ground....

Look at how the oil pressure switch controls that safety relay.

But all Christian is saying is that they've tapped the front tank feed for power to the added fuelled pump.

It's still seeing power while starting, like any other truck.
But it seems both safeties are retained.  

[Papelione]

Ok tried testing power in the connector(C-127) (disconnected) to the Tank Selector Valve (TSV).
But with the engine running.

I made this overview on what happens with power shifting the Fuel Tank Selector Switch (FTSS) from front to rear with the engine running.

Words: Tank Selector Valve (TSV), Fuel Tank Selector Switch (FTSS), Tank selector relay TSR

Also wires match up with the EVTM from 1985 even though mine is a 1984 model, only wire discrepant color wire Is the 3rd wire which in mine is blue with a green stripe, in the 1985 its called DB/Y so maybe same color?





I must admit I have some trouble understanding the diagram on page 106 in the 1985 EVTM, but I'm thinking that the signal going to the TSV is correct and that proves the FTSS is ok? Do you guys agree?

[ArdWrknTrk]

If you unplug the TSV, and measure across the TSV, continuity from 2 is on 1 or 3?

It should be on 1, and with 5 energized it should be on 3

Maybe both in-tank pumps are dead, and the previous owner only bothered to make one functional?

This is my guess, because many would be too lazy or ignorant to fix it all.
And the side tank is much easier to access without lifting the bed.

[Gary Lewis]

Christian - Let me see if I can explain the circuitry on Page 106.

First, the fuel tank selector switch is double-pole double-throw (DPDT) and it reverses the power & ground connections to the tank selector valve depending on which way you throw it.  In Front it puts power on the brown/white wire and ground on the orange wire.  In rear it puts power on the orange wire and ground on the brown/white wire.  And it looks like from your readings that it is working.

That is supposed to run the motor of the tank selector valve to open the supply and return ports to the right tank, and to connect the right sending unit to the gauge.  We can't tell with electrical tests if the ports are being selected correctly, but the electrical connections to the sending units aren't.  I say that because the blinking you are seeing on the yellow/white wire is coming from the instrument cluster voltage regulator, through the gauge, and down to the tank selector valve.  But, if the valve is working correctly that blinking signal should go out on the dark blue/yellow wire in Front or the yellow/light blue wire in Rear.  But it isn't.

If you are confident that you are testing with the wires firmly connected to the tank selector valve, and if the gauge doesn't work in either position, then at least the electrical part of the tank selector valve is bad.  So if you want your gauge to work then you'll have to replace the TSV.

But we don't know about the ports in the valve.  It is doubtful that is working correctly either.  But even if you replace it you don't know if the in-tank pumps are good.  Are you ready to test them?

[ArdWrknTrk]

Which is why I asked him to do the test.

There's only one solenoid in that valve, and it drives both the contacts and the ports.

If it was stuck it would not switch when unpowered (as default is rear)

But the relay is definitely working.

[Gary Lewis]

Right.  I knew you knew, but I was just trying to lay it out for him.

But the tank selector valve's contacts for the sending units don't appear to be closing at all since he's not seeing the blinking signal in either position.

[ArdWrknTrk]

💡!












😉

[Papelione]

Hi

I think I have been unclear above :=)

The previous test have only been on the connector disconnected from the TSV, (signals going to the TSV), Not sure how to test signals with connector plugged in? ( maybe straighten a paper clips and push in?)

But right now I unplugged the TSV and tested continuity on the TSV with no power on.

Between 2-3 there is continuity but not between 2-1, numbers pointed out in picture below.



/Christian

[ArdWrknTrk]

So, if you look at Pg.106 -above- we see that default (power to valve motor) the sender contacts should be 2 to 1 (by your list)
With it unplugged 2-3 is correct.

This would tell me the valve is stuck in the front tank position, because you do have power at orange (with the harness connected)

Are you able to apply power and ground to the valve while under the truck?
You should feel the valve switch over (unless it is dead)

I've used diaper pins to either pierce the wire insulation or back probe the connector.
Now I have Power Probe leads for my meter that do this for me, but a pin works fine for this.