It is time to talk hydraulic clutch systems.

[Gary Lewis]

[ArdWrknTrk]

I have the small triangular reinforcement plate in my truck.
It ties the firewall to the trans tunnel and the pinch weld above.

[Haystack]

I will probably be adding the one from Jeff's bronco graveyard if I can actually get this stupid thing going.

I ended up trading out the prebled kit for another one. It just didn't sit right with me that the entire master clutch cylinder was plastic.

I did swap in the new setup. You do have to drill two holes in the firewall, I also had to clearance the edge of the master clutch cylinder mount slightly, otherwise I would have had to enlarge the large center hole, or ground down the firewall sheet metal lip.

Bottom hole is over an inch lower, top hole is about 1/4 higher. I ended up just enlarging the top hole with a step drill bit and the bottom hole I did redrill, but it was slightly off..the holes are straight up and down.

The slave cylinder looks exactly the same, but the clip was very tight, it dug into the metal on the bellhousing installing it, had to use a small hammer to get it to fully "seat" but feels solid.

Pedal still does not return all the way, but, it has good feel through the travel. I can deal with that later, worse case I'll find a small bungy chord or something to pull it back up if it's an issue.

When I tried to start it, battery was too low, just solinoid clicks. I placed a charger on it over night, going to check on it in the morning. I really should have moved the tire chocks and released the brake just to see if it was working, but I have two other cars pulled right up to the bumper, and would have to move both of them.

Should know in the morning in a few hours if the prebled setup is really the fix or not.

[Gary Lewis]

This has been a very long saga.  Sure hope it starts and that the clutch works well.  

[ArdWrknTrk]

Haystack wrote

I will probably be adding the one from Jeff's bronco graveyard if I can actually get this stupid thing going.

Pedal still does not return all the way, but, it has good feel through the travel. I can deal with that later, worse case I'll find a small bungy chord or something to pull it back up if it's an issue.

Should know in the morning in a few hours if the prebled setup is really the fix or not.

"The Big One" (for severe, rather than 'moderate' damage) is a PITA, what with having to remove the steering column, the pedal box and dash to get at all the bolts.

It's troubling me that the pedal won't snap back up into the rubber stop.  

We're all pulling for you, that's for sure!  

[Haystack]

Well, so much for that.

System had fluid on it, so I can only assume that it was still "prebled".

No resistance on the clutch pedal at all, feels like crap and doesn't even pretend try to get it into gear.

Bad prebled system? Or is something fundamentally wrong on all ends of every part of this stupid truck?

[ArdWrknTrk]

From the beginning it seemed like you were doing everything right.

You're sure the master isn't moving with the firewall?
I've seen where people have a damn 2x4 propped from the master to the radiator support, so they have pedal enough to get home.

[Haystack]

I'd mount some angle iron acrossed the firewall if I thought it might be a problem.

Here's where I am at, the PTO is what really gets in the way. It's mounted right into the trans, that blocks the bellhousing bolts, and since the pto shares fluid, I have to drain it every single time.

I feel like there just has to be something I am missing, and I think it has to be internal to the trans. My father was the one really pushing me to take the truck into a shop. After master muffler pried out the pedal spring, I didn't want to take it back in to another shop.

I personally hate having vehicles worked on, and have had many issues in the past. For the most part, the only thing I will let a shop touch is tires, and I usually stand outside and watch them the whole time.

When we still couldn't get it bled, my dad convinced me that it wouldn't be bad if we had a lift and a heated shop. What sucks, I have all the garage and driveway space in the world, but the truck just doesn't fit, it's almost 13' high. Even if we could squeeze it in, we really can't jack it up unless we had like a 15' or higher ceilings.

I finally relented after about a month of unsuccessfully bleeding it. I was able to jam it in gear, with a slight grind or clunk, and it would idle in gear, but you could tell it wasn't fully releasing.

When the shop has it, they jammed the clutch fork in front of the release bearing, hit the clutch while it was running and broke the clutch fork and bent up the pressure plate teeth.

They then called me and said they could even diagnose it, but blames the "already broken" clutch fork, which they couldn't source a replacement.

I was working out of town still, and my father felt responsible and pulled the trans and replaced the clutch and pressure plate, and that's when we couldn't find a clutch fork anywhere.

Since then, I have not been able to get the clutch to feel like it's doing anything at all. We did end up buying another trans, specifically for the clutch fork, but I figured it would be good extra parts. I sort of feel like if the clutch fork was broken, and the pressure plate was too, it must have bent or broken something else. But I was not able to look at it at all while it was apart.

The bellhousing bolts are basically impossible to get to with the cross member in, and with the way the PTO is mounted, it is much easier and quicker to pull the PTO, as the cross member can't come out with the PTO in place.

Now that I have the other trans, I have an extra PTO cover plate. I am just going to block it off, tie the to up somewhere else on the frame rails (it has hydraulic hoses and a cable running to it, I'd rather not remove those parts of I can help it). Then I can remove the bottom passenger side bell housing bolt, not problem, as well as the bellhousing and cross member, and as a bonus, I don't have to waste gear oil every time I drain it.

This will take dropping the trans from a 2-3 hour job at least, to more like a 10 or 15 minute job. I will also have the trans divorced from the PTO, so it does not have to stay in the trans tunnel. I can pull the current trans, and the "extra" t-19 and just put them side by side and see what wrong.

Maybe the throw out bearing won't side against the clutch fork right, maybe the pressure plate isn't right, heck, I'd like to think better of my dad, but maybe the clutch disc itself is backwards or even the wrong part.

One thing I did do that I wish I didn't, the first clutch I took out was an 11" clutch. I didn't know that I told I took it out, and the one I ordered was a 12" clutch. It was listed as a diesel only part, but, it was significantly cheaper and was in stock while the 11" clutch was not. I assumed that they are interchangeable, as the 12" also list the "heavy duty cab and chassis" which is what I believe this setup to be.

I am wondering if there is a difference, however, that is the setup I drove 1000 miles to Oregon on, and I did drive through heavy rush hour traffic (think 25mph school zones in the morning commute) and it worked fine there as well.

I really do believe that a seal or something in either the master or slave failed, probably old rubber wire out or split after being used and abused for the first time in almost 20 years.

Right before the pedal died on me, I backed into a muddy field next to a steep hill. A little drainage ditch had flooded, but felt solid next to the pole. I had no issues getting to the pole, but it was slightly down hill.

When I finished the job, I could barely get the truck to move forwards without spinning the tires, and about 20 feet uphill was just a muddy swamp.

It took me 2-3 hard runs at that swampy bit to get through, and then I had a good 20° incline up a muddy hill. I really shouldn't have pulled the truck in there, but I was feeling a bit lazy and it was a tall big old pole, and it was covered in trees. It is much easier to cut trees from a bucket then by hand while climbing.

That was the last pole of the day, and one the way back to the hotel was when the clutch started feeling crappy and degraded as I drove back. When I went to start it up the next morning, it just went to the floor with little resistance. It felt like I could 'pump it up" a bit, but I couldn't even get it into gear.

I could smell a bit of a clutch, so I know I was abusing it, but I done know what else could have been done to it unless it's just coincidence that it went bad right after.

Either way, dropping the PTO makes it a simple 2wd setup, just gotta pull the drive line and cross member. 4 bolts on the bellhousing to trans, than I could actually slide the whole trans out and get a good look at everything.

I am hoping that I find something obviously wrong when I drop it. I just don't see how me bleeding the clutch 1000 times made it worse than when I started. The fact that the "prebled" setup felt the same makes me thing it has to be something else wrong.

Maybe the input shaft sleeve is damaged, heck, maybe it's even the wrong clutch disc.

I am just done screwing around. If guys can make a hydraulic setup from a Corvette work in a 32 Ford in a day, I should be able to figure out a completely stock setup. I am just missing something.

[ArdWrknTrk]

Diesel only part,... like only fits a super thick DMF?

Yeah I had a shop change my clutch last year, because my ring gear was completely shot and I had nowhere but mud to lay in to do it.
I bought them all new Luk parts and factory Ford place bolts for the flywheel and pressure plate.
They charged $1300 and 🤬it up so bad I had to bring it back twice, and it still isn't right.
NEVER AGAIN!!!

I'm glad I have a really good tire shop that I can trust. (after having a local chain under inflate my new tires and bust a stud off, but put the wheel cover back on).
"Oh, it happened AFTER I left your shop? Please explain HTH it isn't rattling around inside the hubcap then?!?!" 🤷‍♂️
"30 psi in my 10 ply E-rated 85 series tires???  Even an illiterate can usually match numbers on a gauge to the numbers on the door jamb.". 😖

My lifetime alignment guy suddenly retired last year.
I'm not even going to attempt that with this flakey TTB suspension.

[Haystack]

The diesels use the same teams and bellhousing, it seems they make up the extra gap from the adapter plastic on the flywheel area.

There is a "12" heavy duty option" listed in rock auto. If you compare the part numbers, all of the clutch kits are comparable except a few of the the "heavy duty racing" and "high performance" clutches.

When I went to AutoZone (clutch died on me originally the day before I was supposed to leave for Oregon) they did not list a 12" clutch at all, except for the diesel, and they did not have an 11" clutch kit available locally, special order only. I wanted to leave asap, so I grabbed the "Diesel" listed 12" clutch. It is was the same part number rock auto shows and the same brand, luk, as the "heavy duty" 450 clutch kit, which is why I got it.

The pressure plate  seemed to be the same size and used the same bolt holes as what was already in there, and the clutch disc instead looked identical, just 1/2" larger diameter all around.

[ArdWrknTrk]

Diesel bellhousing is entirely different, with an inspection plate, pmgr starter and even a couple of bolt holes are not quite in the same spot.

I was helping Jonathan figure out the clutch in his IDI not long ago.
That DMF is crazy thick compared to my 460.

[Haystack]

Auto correct totally butchered my last message, sorry. Fat thumbs, small screen.

Yeah, there are some slight differences, I have seen some sort of spacer that is supposed to bolt between the bellhousing and the actual block, not sure if that was only the later 7.3's or not. I don't like diesel stuff. Everything is super expensive when it breaks, and usually special order.

All Ford's were pmgr style by 1990 or so. Early on, they just used the same spacing a hole sizes for the the starters, but the pmgr style were so much smaller (and more powerful) that as they redesigned belhousings and motors, they actually only sized them for the smaller bolt patterns and nose cones.

When I did the aod to t-5 swap in my thunderbird, I went from a 1987 aod to a 2001? Sn-95 t-5. Everyone said the shaft was too long to work, it wasn't. Everyone said the bellhousing wouldn't work, it did. The aod used much longer belk housing bolts, and everyone knows the t-5 bellhousing requires shorter bolts. Well the sn-95 bellhousing used the same bolts as the aod, even had deeper castings for longer bolts.  

I actually used a clutch and flywheel for an f-150 m5od because ironically enough, the sn-95 t-5 used metric fasteners and the block obviously used standard measurements. That meant I couldn't use a 3.8 flywheel, and the two year only 94-95 gt parts were harder to get and usually much more expensive.

I didn't even need to replace my starter, but the hole in the bellhousing wasn't large enough for the 87 starter. I ended up getting one out of a mid 90's Ford truck.

After everyone telling me, and the Internet just being flat out wrong with my t-5 swap, I've learned to verify anything I read online if it's critical. Even if information is meant to be helpful, there's a ton of one year only undocumented changes, it the guy thought he had an 85 but it was actually an 87 ECT ECT.

[ArdWrknTrk]

I can ping Jonathan, if you like.

The IDI's had a fairly massive PMGR from the jump.
Most trucks didn't see them until well into the '90's as I recall.
I DO remember the TSB regarding the spade connector to the starter solenoid that always ate slush and corroded to nothing.

The very last T-bird I worked on was replacing the heater core in a Turbo Coupe.
Man, it would have been easier to pull the engine and cut the firewall, but I got it all back together with not a single extra screw!    

[Haystack]

I can swap a heater core in an hour in a thunderbird. Now putting it back together, getting all the trim to line up and all the plastic bits back without breaking 10 clips, that's a different story.

I have owned around 15 of them over the years. When I was a kid, my first car was an 86 cougar I bought for $110 at a police auction. Back then, these cars were everywhere for $300-500. I fell in love with them, but didn't know anything about cars. Everytime something broke that I couldn't fix or figure out, I would go junk it for $250 (man I miss when scrap was that high) and then I would wait for payday Friday and but another one.

Eventually I got sick of fixing the same things over and over and learned to fix things the "hard way" lol.

My daily driver has always been either a cougar or thunderbird. I drive alot, and I figure I have close to 1 million miles behind the wheel of cougarbirds. For about 10 years, I was averaging 80-100k miles a year. At the time, I was working 60 miles away for my day job, and then delivering pizza at night, 6 days a week. My average daily mileage was usually at least 200 miles a day.

[ArdWrknTrk]

Leg up on me!

I'm fortunate to have very good short term memory (becoming CRS as I get deeper into my 60's)
And a almost intuitive sense of how things fit together.

Have you considered a MK VIII, with the bags removed?

[Haystack]

Mark7's are cool, but they are power/luxury everything. The cougar birds are basically a mustang with a slightly longer wheel base and some if not all the same options of a mark 7. They actually use the same doors, windshield and hood as the mark 7. The weight difference between a cougarbird and mustang is almost 500lbs, and a mark7 7 fully loaded has thicker carpet and more interior isolation as well as another wheel base stretch. Much more rear seat legroom as a result, but they weigh at least 500lbs more then a mark7, white equates to about 1000lbs more than a mustang of the same vintage.

My first 86 car was a true stripper model, no passenger side mirror, no power seats/windows ECT. Had only two options, the sefi 302 and the full digital dash. I weighed it once, and it was right at 3100lbs and I had a few hundred pounds of tools in the trunk. This puts it roughly 300lbs less than a mustang GT of the same year. The doors are actually super heavy, they have a giant corrugated brace, looks like a guard rail that runs from door hinge to door striker.

Later on, I "upgraded" to a fully loaded 87. It has like 16 way adjustable power seats, a memory function, even power recline, automatic climate control, the works. Weighing that car, it was nearly 3800lbs setup exactly the same way. From 86-87, although the body style was updated, the interior remained nearly the exact same. They thickened the carpet and insulation, and they also included all wiring for every option, which alone increases the weight by almost 200lbs alone.

When I bought the car, it came with two ignition keys and only one trunk key. I left the trunk and ignition key on the spare, as it had keyless entry and a electronic trunk release.

After a few months, my starter solenoid failed, bought a new one at the parts store. Drove it to the gas station, it was payday Friday, tanked it up just after hitting the grocery store. When I hit the key, the solenoid failed and the starter stuck on. This was a particularly hot day, had been around 110°f in late July. With no tools on me, I popped the hood and managed to get the battery cable off before it burned up the starter.

I went in and let the gas station clerk know that my car wouldn't start, they freaked out and told me they were calling parking enforcement to have me towed.

I pushed it from the pump into the parking spot while I was waiting for a buddy to come bail me out, but didn't dare leave the car because I didn't want it towed. Busy downtown gas station, not alot of parking.

I ended up waiting about two hours for my buddy, in 110°f heat. Couldn't crack the window, lean the seat back, anything. The worst part, I was basically acrossed the street from my apartment.

Ever since then, I have not a fan of power windows, seats ECT.

When I was 25, I had a crown Vic wagon. I loved that car, but my ex wife was 5'2 and I am 6'5. Within a few months the power seat motor was completely shot. I replaced it a few times, but it was always a problem, and the way the windshield sloped down, I actually had a hard time fitting in that land barge with a rear facing car seat in the back seat. It also got horrible gas mileage, 15ish Mpg city or freeway. For whatever reason, a wagon comes with the "towing package" which includes a minimum 3.55 gear ratio. Helps out a lot of you are towing and around town, but gets the rpm's near 3000 at 65mph. With a 4000rpm redline, it's a bit ridiculous.

The mark8's have gotten cheap cheap, but they are such a pain to work on. The dohc 4.6 is cool, and they make almost 300hp in the "lsc" model. But that setup is so wide, it's nearly impossible to change spark plugs. As a matter of fact, a dohc 4.6 is significantly wider than a 460. They are also pretty heavy, they weigh in at over 4000lbs at the lightest, and a fully loaded model can weigh over 4500lbs. They are also less than stellar gas mileage, with less than 20 mpg city and a whole 21mpg highway.

[ArdWrknTrk]

What engine in a crown Vic wagon has a 4,000 rpm redline???  

I've only ever bothered with the LSC's
Changed throttle bodies and installed shorty headers.
Plugs aren't bad if you have the "quick detach" fender wells!  

I just figured that if you were putting that kind of stupid mileage on every week, the comfort would be worth it.

[85lebaront2]

The plugs on the DOHC 4.6 I have are in the center of the heads. If you have the COP system, yes, then you have to pull the coils first. On the Continental the 1-4 plugs are a pain because the engine is sideways (Taurus platform).

[Haystack]

Did I ever tell you that I am picky? Like really, really picky? The biggest deal breaker for me on the mark series in the airbags honestly. Now they are much cheaper to replace, and much more common, but 15 years ago, I could buy another car for the cost of fixing the airbags.

The "4,000rpm" redline, is not technically actually 4,000rpm. It will run up to 6250 or so if you have all day, but it is done making power around 3200rpm. The standard output sefi 302 made 150hp from 86-91.

This had a much lower lift cam from the pick up trucks, as well as the e6 head castings (e4,e5 and e7's are the "smog era heads) which are the "high swirl" casting designed specifically to improve emissions.

These were only really used in 86-88 cougars/non-lsc mark7's and the 86-91 sefi crown Vic. The "high output" 302 in the mustang and mark7 lsc was an easy 75hp upgrade.

[ArdWrknTrk]

Those bags were the bane of many owners.
That's why I said "with the bags removed" (and the pump fuse pulled, obviously)
Just use the shocks/struts/whatever from a car like the Tbird, or a police car if you wanted a firmer ride without the ass in the air.

When you're poor and drive a tow truck 'picky' can mean different things.
Nice mags with great rubber? Check.
Giant doors and comfortable seats? Check
Quick enough and effortless highway? Check

I never paid for gas, because I'd siphon cars before I brought them to the shredder.
It did have some odd features, like the compass, but all in all a vehicle I was familiar with and easy to find parts for.