Gary's "Nothing Special" Moab trip

[BigBrother-84]

Nothing Special wrote

Dyneema is one of the most well-known brands, and it's typically called that or just synthetic rope.  It doesn't store energy as well as steel when it's in tension, and it's much lighter, so it slows down quickly when it does shoot.  As a result it comes the closest to just dropping when something breaks.

[Gary Lewis]

Sorry guys, Janey and I've been watching movies to celebrate her knew-found freedom and I missed your posts.

But Bob is exactly right, as always.  You sure don't want to put that much pull on a drop hitch.  Instead my recovery point is a direct pull and is solid.  Plus my winch line is synthetic.  I think we are good.

[Nothing Special]

I found another Top of the World video that I THINK will help you get a better perspective on it.  I say "THINK" because of a few caveats...

These guys are overlanders, not rock crawlers.  They say that several times.  And they were told that this trail was just an easy drive.  So they were surprised at how difficult it was.  But keep in mind that this was difficult based on their experience and expectations.  I know you aren't experienced in this, but I am, so we're probably in better shape than they were.  And we're expecting it to be a real rock-crawling trail.  I'm not saying it's a HARD rock-crawling trail.  But I think you'll agree I haven't been selling it as "an easy drive" either.  So it'll be a challenge, but it'll be a good challenge!

Another caveat is one I've given on most of these videos.  The parts of the trail that they seem to have the most trouble with are from about 12:00 to 24:20.  That's the back side of the "lollipop" top of the trail.  I'm expecting we'll skip that by coming back down the front side (the way they went up).  (They call this a lollipop trail, with a "stick" up to a loop at the top and then back down the stick)

With those caveats, they are in a couple of vehicles that I think are probably less capable than Big Blue, and they make it relatively easily.  There's a white Fourunner that sits a lot lower than Big Blue, it's on 33s and doesn't seem to have any lockers (definitely no front locker).  They get pretty worried about his bumper a few times (especially on the back of the lollipop), but really never do anything worse than dragging skid plates or the hitch.  The other is a Tacoma on 35s, but also no lockers and not much lift.

So if you turn off the sound (to avoid their comments about how much harder it is compared to what they had expected) and skip from 12:00 to 24:20 (which we won't be on) it'll look like a cake walk!

Also they talk about the trail taking them 11 hours and finishing after dark.  It's a long trail, but it only took us about 6 hours (plus the 2 hours from and to Moab on the highway).  I think at times they were held up by a big group.  And they definitely took a lot of time coming down the back of the lollipop.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P7PI2Su8Z-g

[Gary Lewis]

Ok, I'm watching and taking notes.

Yes, some of their vehicles aren't quite as capable as BB, but my approach angle probably isn't as good as theirs.  So it will be an interesting day.

But I don't want that guy to be my cook as he doesn't know a hot dog from an hamburger.

And that section coming down the backside of the lollipop definitely looks like something to skip!  I'll pass.

"Right now the camera is totally level, and you are at ... a pretty big angle."

This is not something I think I should show Janey.  Not sure she will understand that we aren't doing the backside of the lollipop, but maybe?  

Overall, that looks like a real challenge, but I think we can do it.  

Speaking of rocks and sliding (we weren't?), I don't actually have rock sliders.  I just have aluminum step bars.  I'm wondering if I should think about making sliders?  I could use the mounts, which are STRONG, and go from there.  

[Nothing Special]

If you choose to show Janey the video you could completely skip the part we aren't doing, explaining that we aren't doing that so there's no need for her to see it.  You know her much better than I do, so I'll let you make the call!

On the rock sliders, it's up to you.  On the one 'wheeling trip I took with my stock '85 F-250HD, clearance at the rocker panels wasn't an issue.  Dragging the rear bumper and hitting the diffs were common occurrences, but not the rockers.  Actual sliders might add some peace of mind, but if it's just for this one trip I think we'll be able to keep you off your rocker...  er, I mean off your rockers!

[Gary Lewis]

Too late, some say I'm already off my rocker.  

Yes, I could show Janey and tell her we aren't doing that bit so we'll skip ahead.  In fact, I can show her the book and the lollipop with the side we aren't doing that says "This side of loop is extremely difficult" and explain that we aren't doing that.

On the sliders, if we can stay off the rocker then I'm ok.  Even if I scrape or bend the bottom of one of the steps I'm fine.  One of them already had a scrape when I got them so it wouldn't be a huge loss.

In fact, I'd toyed with doing that already.  I saw a Youtube where a guy bent a piece of square tubing in a smooth bend by slicing wedges out of it and then rewelding it.  But instead of then sucking that up to the bracket with a 3/4" bolt I'd weld the tubing to the bracket.  Would be quite solid.

[BigBrother-84]

Amazing!

I am wondering about what he means about “aluminum skid plates”, looks like a normal add-on, that any good overlander would know…
Do we understand that he added some plates under his truck?  To protect what, aren’t the most sensitive under-truck parts the drive shaft and the axles/differential/transfer case?
And why to choose aluminium as material, isn’t much less resistant than steel?

I am curious about how these plates would look.

[Gary Lewis]

You don't have skid plates on Big Bro?  Both Big Blue and Dad's truck have steel skid plates that cover the transfer case and both gas tanks.

As for aluminum, there is some really serious aluminum available.  As a kid my family had a cabin in the Oklahoma woods on the Grand River.  Across the river was what the locals called the Powder Plant where during WWII a lot of ammunition was made.  Pryor Creek cut through it and when the river was really high there was enough water to take our boat up into the plant.

The first thing we noticed was a gate with barbed wire that, when closed, would go to the bottom of the creek.  The second thing was a road just inside the fence and I could imagine a Jeep with a .50 caliber machine gun mounted on it patrolling the road.

Then we found the scrap pile.  Lots of neat stuff, including pieces of aluminum we thought we could use, so we took two small pieces.  When we got it home we tried to drill it and just succeeded in dulling our bits.  That stuff was so hard we finally gave up and threw it away.

I have no idea what alloy it was, but it was very light and felt like aluminum.  But it wouldn't bend nor drill worth a hoot, so wasn't useful to us.  But it would make great skid plates.

[Nothing Special]

Gary Lewis wrote

You don't have skid plates on Big Bro?  Both Big Blue and Dad's truck have steel skid plates that cover the transfer case and both gas tanks....

I know that skid plates were an option on the F-250HD in '85, because I ordered one new (I did get the skid plates).  But I don't know how often the option was chosen.

I kind of wonder if the people in that video actually know what skid plates are too.  In at least one place he's dragging his aluminum side step / running board / psuedo rock slider and the spotter says "it's just your skid plate".

But yes, there are three primary materials used for skid plates: steel, aluminum and a plastic (sorry, I don't know the specific plastic, but it's something that's used in commercial kitchen cutting boards).

Steel is most common.  It's cheap, easy to work with and strong.  It's also pretty good at not getting hung up on rocks.

Aluminum is next most common.  It's light, which is a good thing in a rock crawler (taking stress off suspension and driveline components) and a very good thing in an overlander (which are usually loaded well over their GVWR with roof-top tents, refrigerators and other comforts of home).  It's also quite strong.  I don't know for sure about the grade of aluminum they use (I doubt it's as good as the military stuff Gary mentioned), but I know that aluminum canoes will catch and gouge when they drag on rocks, so I pretty strongly suspect aluminum skid plates will catch worse than steel.

I don't know that I've ever seen a commercially available plastic skid plate, but I have seen vehicles featured in magazines where the owner built a plastic skid plate.  They are very light and very slippery.  They are a little harder to work with (you can't bend them well and can't weld at all), so they are usually used where everything has been tucked up so high in the chassis that a flat sheet can be bolted to the bottom of the frame.  It's also not that strong so it needs to be thicker (like maybe 1"?) so it hurts ground clearance (but who cares when you're running 40" tires or bigger).

[Nothing Special]

Oh, and as Gary said, the transfer case and gas tanks are the most common things to be protected by skid plates.  Transmissions and oil pans are probably next most common.

Anything after that gets pretty specialized.  You can't really put skid plates under the drive shaft (they'd hang down too far and there's nothing convenient to mount them to).  But people do add parts to the snout of the differential to protect the U-joint at that end.  Sometime steering boxes or the bottom of the radiator get protection.

[Gary Lewis]

I have a little bit of experience with plastic skid plates.  Our next door neighbor has RZRs and he bought a full set of plastic skid plates for his and we installed them on the lift.

They are Ultra High Molecular Weight (UHMW) polyethylene and are about 1/2" thick.  That makes them heavy enough that you really don't want to be laying under the RZR trying to bench press them into place, so two people under it on the lift was a bit help.

They go on with cupped washers in recesses so the bolt heads aren't a snag point.  And they work quite well.  He said that with the metal skid plates he sometimes came to a grinding halt, but with these he slides right on over like they are lubricated.  There were scrapes on them after he took it out, but no true gouges.

This company makes some of them and their advert explains the advantages quite well.

[Nothing Special]

The discussion here and in your rock slider thread prompts me to open a little broader discussion here: What vehicle mods should be done before this trip?

My short answer to that is "no more than you want to do."  From what I know of Big Blue from reading your posts over time, I'm confident that he will be able to do these trails as he currently sits.  Yes Pluto has some advantages over Big Blue, but this isn't a trip where I expect to be pushing either vehicles limits.  Look at my videos from SMORR last fall.  We're not doing that on this trip!

So what might you want to do?  Obviously anything that you have in mind for creature comforts and just "finishing" things.  Your seats and console fit into that category.  You're going to be spending a week in Big Blue.  Whatever you want to do to make that week more enjoyable is probably top of the list.

As far as anything better prepare him for the trails, the most likely things to hit rocks will be (from most likely to least likely) the receiver hitch, the diffs, the rear bumper, the front bumper and the side steps.

You will hit the hitch.  Probably many times.  There's not much you can do about that, but there's also not much reason to do anything.  You're VERY unlikely to do any damage to anything by dragging the hitch other than putting some burrs on the low points.  If you were to remove the hitch you obviously wouldn't hit it anymore, but that would move the rear bumper to the top of the list (more on that later).  Or simply trying to mount it higher would reduce the number of times it will get hit (it'd still get hit quite a lot), but again, at more risk to the rear bumper.

Diffs hit rocks when you're rock crawling.  Speeds will be low, so there's VERY little risk of damaging a housing.  The biggest risk is in damaging the cover.  The OX cover is one of the toughest there is, so you're as good as you're going to get there.  Having a strong cover on the rear diff is less important because you're a lot less likely to back hard into a rock.  My CJ5 had stock covers on both axles and I never had problems, so I think you'll be fine there.  But the one thing that might be worth looking at is whether the covers (especially the rear) stick below the housing.  If it does it might get caught on a rock and peeled back, creating a leak.  The Trail Recon guy had that happen in a Sprinter van / camper he has and it wiped out his rear axle before he noticed it.  So checking to make sure the cover is protected by the housing wouldn't be a bad idea.  And a flap disk would be a pretty easy fix if needed.

Rear bumper is next on the list.  I know you have a plan for a new bumper that would be better at taking hits than a stock bumper, as well as providing a better departure angle, especially by integrating the hitch into the bumper.  That's probably a good idea for a trip like this, but I don't think it's necessary.  As we discussed above, I think the receiver will keep your bumper off the rocks for the most part (and knowing the bumper is a weak point we can work to that as well).  You will very likely drag the new bumper as well, and at least scuff it up.  But it will likely be harder to bend than a stock bumper.  So if you want to do this in the next few months it might be nice to have it before the trip.  But don't drive yourself crazy trying to force this in before the trip.  Again, only if you want to.

Front bumper.  I know the approach angle on my stock '85 F-250HD was good enough that I would not have been concerned about its front bumper on these trails.  You have the winch bumper that cuts your approach angle, but you also have the solid axle swap and reverse shackle kit lifting Big Blue higher than stock.  And 33" tires rather than the stock ~31.5".  So I don't think this will be a problem.  You MIGHT bump a rock ledge with the bumper before the tires start climbing, but if the ledge is big enough for that you'll be going slow.  So I can't rule out a little scraping, but that would be about it.

Rockers.  I wouldn't have been concerned about that in my '85 F-250 on these trails.  Again Big Blue sits higher, but your steps will give up some (most?  all?) of that advantage.  Still I don't think it'll be an issue.  If you want to do anything to strength that area, great.  But certainly don't do anything that will make you and Janey enjoy the truck less (like taking the steps off, or replacing them with something that doesn't work as well as a step).  And don't try to do too much in too little time and drive yourself crazy either.

[Gary Lewis]

Bob - Big Blue's rear diff is no stranger to rocks, as you can see below.  And the aluminum cover isn't sticking out below the diff itself, but I don't want to back into a rock.

But I didn't check the front diff, so plan to do so tomorrow.

I'm going to have the "comfort" things done soon, so could look at some other things.  And I think the rear bumper would be my choice of things to do that would help.  That would raise the clearance in the rear dramatically since, as you said, the receiver is part of the bumper.  Yes, we'd probably scrape the bottom of the bumper on rocks, but I doubt we do more than cosmetic damage.

But I'm not thinking that I'm going to get to make the bumper, at least not before the trip.  We have a lot going on right now with doctors appointments.  And the grandtwins are coming around Easter.  Plus we want to take Big Blue on a trip to western OK, which will be a good test of the seats.  And there's getting everything ready, including routes programmed into the Garmin.

So I'm doubting I'll undertake anything very extensive.

[BigBrother-84]

Gary Lewis wrote

You don't have skid plates on Big Bro?  Both Big Blue and Dad's truck have steel skid plates that cover the transfer case and both gas tanks.

Nope, Big Bro doesn’t.





Thanks guys for all these information, very instructive!

[Gary Lewis]

I'll take some pics of the skid plates on Big Blue tomorrow, Jeff.  It is a lot of weight that you don't need unless you are doing things like I may be doing.

[BigBrother-84]

Gary Lewis wrote

I'll take some pics of the skid plates on Big Blue tomorrow, Jeff.  It is a lot of weight that you don't need unless you are doing things like I may be doing.

Got it, but I am just curious.

[Gary Lewis]

Jeff - Here are the skid plates for the Bullnose trucks.  The pic on the left shows the two up front, with one for the transfer case and the one for the front gas tank.  And on the right is the one for the rear gas tank.

[BigBrother-84]

Thanks!
Instructive!

[Nothing Special]

Gary, I thought of a couple more potential things for you to do to Big Blue before the trip.

From some pictures you've already posted in this thread I think the first one might not be needed.  But if you have the spare tire under the bed I'd pretty strongly suggest removing it and the carrier pieces.  Tires don't slide on slickrock very well, which is great when you need traction, but significantly less great if you are dragging the spare tire!  The one 'wheeling trip I took with a pickup I just tossed the tire loose in the bed.  We won't be getting so crazy that you can't get away with that.  But if you want to tie it down somehow that wouldn't be bad insurance.

And you might have already done the other one too.  We've talked a few times about a hand throttle.  I kind of think the last time we did you had said you were going to get one, but I don't know if I'm remembering that right (or if you've done it).  A hand throttle isn't a necessity, but after 'wheeling with one I'll never 'wheel without one, at least with a manual trans.  It's really nice to be able to work the throttle while you are holding the brake and letting out the clutch when starting on a STEEP hill.  And it's also helpfull to be able to set the idle a little higher for crawling up a rough trail, so you don't have to try to hold your foot steady as you bounce along.  With the torque of a 460 it might not be as bad without a hand throttle as it is with a 302.  Still, if you don't have one yet I'd suggest adding it.  But again, your choice.

[Gary Lewis]

Bob - Big Blue's spare is well and truly strapped down in the bed, as shown way below.

But I don't have a hand throttle, so that's a good idea.  The 460 does have good torque, but it would be handy to throttle up a bit w/o using your feet.  I'd hoped to be able to do that with the PTO function of the ECU, but it didn't work, so I'll look into a manual one.  Thanks!

By the way, Janey's been looking for movies that were filmed out there, so we just watched MI-2, which she'd read has Dead Horse Point in it.  If you don't remember it starts out with Ethan Hunt rock climbing and waaaaaaaay down below is a road, and farther down is a river.  I told her "I'll bet that's our road and that's the Colorado!"  Take a gander at where it is, and I know you know where the Thelma & Louise Point is.