Gary's "Nothing Special" Moab trip

[Gary Lewis]

I think it is too late for using the KISS approach on Big Blue.  

But, as you pointed out, this isn't mission critical and won't stop me on the side of the road.  So I'm not worried about adding another complex solution.

If 10 seconds is enough, and I think it is as well, then I'll plan on going that way.  But so far the relay-looking units appear to delay before closing the relay, so they are out.  And while the 2nd one I listed should work nicely, I'd rather have ones that are easier to mount - like the relay-looking ones.  So the hunt goes on.

And pulling the mount for the O2 gauge to put the switch on gives me an opportunity to paint it black like the one on the other side of the dash.

[Nothing Special]

Thinking back to the discussions about Canyonlands and Arches...

As I've watched a couple of videos on Shafer Switchbacks I'm starting to feel like you really should drive down it to experience the view the best.  That would mean having to enter the park through the main gate, but that line wasn't bad the one time we did it.  I'm thinking if you're early enough in the day that won't be too bad (Arches is the park that has the ridiculous lines).  It also means either driving out on Potash Road at the end of the day or turning around and going back up Shafer to avoid the rough Potash Road.  I think my new recommendation would be to go down Shafer and out Potash at the end of the day.  Yeah, it's a rough slog, but it is a nice view, so it's probably worth doing once.  If you still want to go up Shafer, I won't really try to change your mind.  And no matter which way you go, if you take Potash Road definitely air down!

I've watched a few more videos of the 4WD trails in Arches.  I don't think it'll be on this trip, but some time we're going to do an Arches 'wheeling day.  I'd go in on Willow Springs Road (aka Willow Flats Road), head up to the Devil's Garden area and spend a little time hiking around there.  Then I'd drive up Salt Valley Road to the Tower Arch Road.  After seeing Tower Arch I'd head down the trail that's called either Eye of the Whale Arch, or a continuation of the Tower Arch loop.  Then I'd head out toward Delicate Arch where I think there's another trail I might explore.  (edit to add, that trail is called Cache Valley Road).  I'd finish up by heading back down the pavement and leaving through the main entrance.  But you can also leave the park on Salt Valley Road, and that might be fun too.

The Arches National Park brochure map has some of this.  Your guide book probably has Tower Arch (calling it a loop that includes what others call Eye of the Whale).

The Tower Arch Loop might be more than you'd want to do on your own.  I haven't been there, but it is listed as "difficult."  This video is the best I've seen to show it.  He talks... a lot, through his videos.  I've watched a view of his videos and I can't get a good read on him.  His Jeep looks pretty well equipped, but I don't think he has a Rubicon, so it's not geared as low as it might be, and I'm not sure he has lockers.  On some easier trails he talks about how technical they are, but he also talks about having done "the Pickle" trail, which is one I'm pretty sure Pluto will never see.  Anyway, I say all of that to tell you that I don't know how seriously you should take what he says.  But he does say he likes the trail, and you can see it so you can get an idea if you might be willing to do it on your own (keeping in mind that you'll have quite a bit more 'wheeling experience by that time!).

Anyway, just some more food for thought as the trip gets closer.  Only 75 days!

[Gary Lewis]

75 days, but who's counting?  

I hadn't said, but I'd been thinking that down the Shafer Switchbacks is the way to do it.  And all that means is that we'll have to remember that we have Potash Road to traverse at the end of the day, so will just have to know when to head back.  And airing down is not a problem.  (Which reminds me, I have enough hose and air to help you air up when the times come.)

And as we've discussed elsewhere, I'd already sorta planned to take Willow Springs/Flats road.  And I've just watched Cache Valley Road video, which looks easy.  But only got started on the 2nd video and saw how long it is so will finish it up tomorrow.

However, I'm not sure how remote we'll want to get by ourselves, so that may govern a bit of the planning.  On the other hand, we'll have a lot more 'wheeling under our belts by then, so may be ready to do it.

Anyway, more on that tomorrow.  Thanks!

Oh yes, I clicked on the map link and it opened the same map I already had open.  

[Gary Lewis]

Ok, I'm watching the 43 minute Tower Arch Loop video and will comment as I go.  But first for a summary of my thoughts.

I think that would be a good excursion for two or more vehicles.  Not that I saw anything that would be a challenge or dangerous, but the remoteness could be an issue if you did have trouble.  My Garmin has inReach and my iPhone has an emergency capability, but it might take people quite a while to get to you.

I think we'd be happy to consider that if you wanted to do so, but we'd also be happy to just come in via Willow Springs and poke around the park instead of exploring the backroads.

You are right, he does talk a LOT. He seems to have very large tires but not a terribly-low gear ratio.  Don't hear much from the engine in M1 and 4-Low.

The comment about deep sand is interesting as I don't have recovery boards and, as he said, there's nothing to get hold of for self recovery.  So if doing that by ourselves I think I'd want to have recovery boards along.

At 10:00 he says "Going to get out here and see where this trail goes."  Not sure if he was meaning that he's not sure as he crests the hill, which my camera should help with, or if he just wants to give us a good view.  And it was an awesome view.

At 13 - 15 minutes he goes down a rocky section, and at 14 minutes he said the "older couple" in the tour vehicle looked terrified.  

The passageway at 23 minutes sure looks narrow, but the arches look awesome!  But a mountain lion?  And rattlesnakes??

26:34  Sign says "4WD Road" but FunTreks calls it Tower Arch & Trails OffRoad app calls it Eye Of The Whale.

31:00  "Don't come out here alone."

40:00 Intersection with Willow Springs, which they take.

42:22 they talk about having gotten into the park at 9:00 and it was 2:45 then and they weren't quite out of the park.  So that was certainly an all-day excursion.  But quite doable.

[Nothing Special]

Some thoughts on your thoughts

Gary Lewis wrote

Ok, I'm watching the 43 minute Tower Arch Loop video and will comment as I go.  But first for a summary of my thoughts.

I think that would be a good excursion for two or more vehicles.  Not that I saw anything that would be a challenge or dangerous, but the remoteness could be an issue if you did have trouble.  My Garmin has inReach and my iPhone has an emergency capability, but it might take people quite a while to get to you.

I'm certainly not going to tell you (or him for that matter) what safety precautions to take.  And the general rule is to never 'wheel alone, but I almost always violate that rule.  But I wouldn't feel this is remote enough to be a concern.  Top of the World is WAY more remote than this, as far as that goes.  And he talked about seeing tour vehicles, so it seems likely that someone would show up if you needed them to.

Gary Lewis wrote

I think we'd be happy to consider that if you wanted to do so, but we'd also be happy to just come in via Willow Springs and poke around the park instead of exploring the backroads.

I wouldn't COMPLETELY rule it out for day 5 of this trip.  But I think we're going to leave this for another year.  As far as what you might do, I'm just offering info for your consideration.  Obviously you do what the two of you will enjoy!

Gary Lewis wrote

You are right, he does talk a LOT. He seems to have very large tires but not a terribly-low gear ratio.  Don't hear much from the engine in M1 and 4-Low.

The comment about deep sand is interesting as I don't have recovery boards and, as he said, there's nothing to get hold of for self recovery.  So if doing that by ourselves I think I'd want to have recovery boards along.

I've heard it said that if you need recovery boards to get unstuck that you weren't actually stuck.  Personally I've never had a need for them.  And I don't see anything there that would really qualify as "deep sand."  The year I 'wheeled in Sand Hollow I saw what that was, and Moab doesn't seem to have any.  Aired down wide all-terrains should be plenty.  But again, I'm not telling you to do this on your own.  I'm confident you could do it, but you'll have to see where your confidence is by that time to know if it will be fun or just too stressful.

Gary Lewis wrote

At 10:00 he says "Going to get out here and see where this trail goes."  Not sure if he was meaning that he's not sure as he crests the hill, which my camera should help with, or if he just wants to give us a good view.  And it was an awesome view.

If I recall correctly, my interpretation of that was that he wasn't sure which way the trail went and what might be old tracks that went off trail.  I think the trail was a little less well defined right there.  But my interpretation could be wrong.  And whatever reason he stopped, he didn't seem to have any concerns about getting going again, so that's good.

Gary Lewis wrote

At 13 - 15 minutes he goes down a rocky section, and at 14 minutes he said the "older couple" in the tour vehicle looked terrified.  

The passageway at 23 minutes sure looks narrow, but the arches look awesome!  But a mountain lion?  And rattlesnakes??

I think sometimes the tour drivers try to scare passengers!  And I'm sure there are lions and snakes around there.  But there's been a bear in my suburban neighborhood, and mountain lion sightings outside of towns not far from my house.  I'm not going to stress over hearing about it there.  Maybe try to be a little careful about where you walk (regarding snakes), but lots of tourists go there all the time and I don't here much about lions or snakes, so I think the encounters are pretty rare.

Gary Lewis wrote

26:34  Sign says "4WD Road" but FunTreks calls it Tower Arch & Trails OffRoad app calls it Eye Of The Whale.

31:00  "Don't come out here alone."

40:00 Intersection with Willow Springs, which they take.

42:22 they talk about having gotten into the park at 9:00 and it was 2:45 then and they weren't quite out of the park.  So that was certainly an all-day excursion.  But quite doable.

Like I said, don't go alone is always good advice, but it's often not followed.  And as remote as this seems, remember that it is in the busiest National Park in the country!  There are a lot of people not that far away!

The different names for the road could get a bit confusing.  But it doesn't seem like there are all that many intersections, so I don't think it'll be hard to know where you're going.

[Gary Lewis]

I’ve been stuck where “recovery boards” would have been helpful. But that was in 1965 in a 47 Chevy 2wd. We were going fast when hit the beach and got 100 yards out before bogging down to the axles. We found old boards in a drift pile and got it out 6’ at a time. Dig, place the boards, drive 6’ & sink, dig, rinse, repeat.  It was a loooong day.

So if I were doing that loop by myself I might use it as an excuse to buy recovery boards. But two vehicles could use each other to winch out - even with the weight difference between Pluto & Big Blue.

But Janey and I will keep it in mind.

As for the pause at the top of the ridge, my thought was that he needed to see where the trail went. My brother and I had the same problem in Ouray, many times. Which was one reason I got the cameras.

On the trail names, I may throw another in the mix. I have the Garmin Montana and need to see what trails it shows and what it calls them. Plus I have Gaia, All Trails, & onX Offroad. So even if Garmin doesn’t have a trail I can download it from one of the others and import it. But I haven’t started that yet should do, soon.

[Nothing Special]

Nothing Special wrote

The trail I'd REALLY like to take you on is Hell's Revenge.  I've been trying to find some good videos to include to show you why you should do it, but honestly I'm not finding anything that I think will help.  Hell's Revenge is the BEST place to see the other-worldly beauty of the uniqueness of the Moab area, but no pictures or video can do it justice.  And if you spend too much time looking at videos of Hell's Revenge I think you'll mostly see the steepness of the hills (which will tend to scare you off) but you can't see the traction you get that makes those hills so much fun....

OK, I might have found one.  I do present this with some trepidation, because Hell's Revenge is a scary trail and you'll see that in this video.  But I think this video also does a pretty good job of showing how difficult the trail isn't.  They have a Grand Cherokee (with traction control, but no flex and no ground clearance), a crew cab Tacoma with open diffs and a Wrangler.  Two of those vehicles would have a lot more trouble with this trail than Big Blue, and they both make it pretty easily.  Yes, they do have a great spotter, but I have no doubt that we can get Big Blue over this with no trouble.

Skip over from 13:07 to 25:13.  That's Hell's Gate, which is an optional obstacle.  You can watch it if you want to be entertained, but don't worry about it.  You won't be doing that!

From 34:00 to 35:52 is Dragon's Tail, possibly the scariest section of the trail.  His verbal description is probably a bit of hyperbole, but you might feel a lot like what he says!  But as scary as it is, as you watch this from the safety of your living room, keep an eye on how easy it really is.  Coming off the top is spooky because you can't see the trail.  But I didn't have any real trouble (although I did have some nerves!) doing this the first time we were there.  And Pluto's hood is a billboard!  Even without your camera you wouldn't have it much, if any harder than I did and with your camera it will be easy to know you're on the right line.  Because all you need to do here is stay in your lane.  And with the black tire marks it's really easy to see where that is.  It's like that two-lane highway metaphor I keep coming back to.  If you get out of your lane you could be in real trouble.  So no problem, you just stay in your lane!

So take a look at this.  And probably watch it a few times.  Hopefully it will give you a better understanding of what the trail is.  We'll still wait until after doing Sevenmile Rim and Top of the World to decide if you think you can have fun on Hell's Revenge.  That experience will be helpful in making this call too, but I want you to have a picture of Hell's Revenge as well.

[Gary Lewis]

Ok, I'll watch the video, but a little later this morn as Janey will be beside me in a couple of minutes and I don't think I'm ready to show her.  At least not until I've seen it

[Nothing Special]

Probably a good plan!

[BigBrother-84]

Nothing Special wrote

Hell's Revenge is a scary trail and you'll see that in this video.  But I think this video also does a pretty good job of showing how difficult the trail isn't.

Someday this trail will be asphalted, with a nice and smooth rubber pavement.

[Nothing Special]

No fair, you're showing the entrance to Hell's Gate, the optional obstacle I told Gary to skip!

As to the trails getting permanently paved in rubber, I've heard that in the spring, after an off-season with less traffic and a few storms they get cleaned up pretty well.

But yes, the "black top road" is a unique sight!

[Gary Lewis]

Ok, I'm watching, and here are comments as we go:

That's the couple I've watched, and communicated with, regarding overlanding in the Ozarks.

The fin at the beginning and the one at 5:30ish is spooky, but I assume we'll do many of those in Fins & Things?

The climb at 6:15 was steep!  And going down at 6:50ish was as well.

At 10:40 that Jeep Grand Cherokee doesn't appear to have a locker in the front and maybe not in the back.  In fact, the 2023 version's advert says a rear locker was optional

I skipped welding the tie rod back together.  

At 25+ the drone footage is typical of OOA.  They always give you a good overview of what they are tackling.  But I could do w/o the "music".

I'll bypass the bit at 27:15 where the Jeep is showing off.  I like the way the others went.

The marks on the rocks at 28:50 are impressive!  That Grand Cherokee made it w/o dragging, but that pickup left quite a mark w/the rear bumper.  I'll bet Big Blue will as well, but with the hitch.  

At 30 minutes that dip is going to be a problem with BB's wheelbase.  

And at 31:30 that "fin" is scary, but the "staying in your lane" analogy works for me.

Ok, the Dragon's Tail is scarier!  "I will tell you if something is about to go wrong."  How much warning do I get???  

Bottom Line: By Day 5 I might have the confidence to do that.  Not sure Janey will though, so we will have to see how things are going.  How confident we are with my abilities and how Big Blue is doing .  In other words, let's put this in the "maybe" category.  

[Nothing Special]

A few quick responses without checking the video to see exactly what you're referring to.

Gary Lewis wrote

....The fin at the beginning and the one at 5:30ish is spooky, but I assume we'll do many of those in Fins & Things?

The fins on Fins & Things are at the end and can be skipped.  If we do that trail we'll decide on whether or not to do the fins when we get to them.

Gary Lewis wrote

....  At 10:40 that Jeep Grand Cherokee doesn't appear to have a locker in the front and maybe not in the back.  In fact, the 2023 version's advert says a rear locker was optional

I think they said it has traction control, so working brakes individually to get tires to stop spinning.  That works OK, but it does allow some spinning, and tends to be a little jerky as it hits the brake and maybe cuts throttle while you're trying to up that steep hill.

Gary Lewis wrote

....  The marks on the rocks at 28:50 are impressive!  That Grand Cherokee made it w/o dragging, but that pickup left quite a mark w/the rear bumper.  I'll bet Big Blue will as well, but with the hitch.  

If it's what I'm thinking, going over it at an angle with the Grand Cherokee is what kept her from dragging.  They tried that with the Toyota, but the open diffs left him crossed up, so they had to do the straight-on approach.  With a front locker Big Blue can probably avoid getting crossed up, so we can try the angle approach.  But yes, he'll still likely drag the hitch once or twice

Gary Lewis wrote

....  Ok, the Dragon's Tail is scarier!  "I will tell you if something is about to go wrong."  How much warning do I get???  

Yeah, that comment maybe wasn't the most genuine!  But seriously, all the driver needed to know was where "his lane" was for that fairly short time he was breaking over the top and couldn't see over his hood.  That isn't too hard to deal with, and your camera will help too.

Gary Lewis wrote

Bottom Line: By Day 5 I might have the confidence to do that.  Not sure Janey will though, so we will have to see how things are going.  How confident we are with my abilities and how Big Blue is doing .  In other words, let's put this in the "maybe" category.

Yeah, I'm thinking it's a "maybe".  We'll see where you both are at that point.  And we could even do the "gatekeeper" fin and then reconvene.  If it seems like doing things like that will be more exciting than terrifying we can go on.  If not, it's easy to turn and go right back out on the exit road (the fin is one-way).

[Nothing Special]

A few more comments now that I've watched the video at the points you referenced.

Gary Lewis wrote

....  The fin at the beginning and the one at 5:30ish is spooky, ...

the one at the beginning definitely gets your attention.  That's the "gatekeeper" I was talking about.  If driving over stuff like that all day will make it a bad day you should turn around right away.  The one at 5:30 I think won't be as bad.  I don't think it looks all that high.  It more seems to be an "on-ramp" to get up that hill to the vehicles right.  But yes, there are a lot of things on this trail that are spooky.  Whether the trail is fun or not depends on if you can see that as exciting or if it's just terrifying.  And we'll have to see how that goes.

Gary Lewis wrote

The climb at 6:15 was steep!  And going down at 6:50ish was as well.

At 6:15 the Wrangler is taking an optional line up the side of the fin from 5:30.  Yes it's steep!  But you get an idea of the incredible traction as he just walks up.

6:50 is a mandatory part of the trail (no bypass).  But you just idle down and let the traction make it easy.

Gary Lewis wrote

The marks on the rocks at 28:50 are impressive!  That Grand Cherokee made it w/o dragging, but that pickup left quite a mark w/the rear bumper.  I'll bet Big Blue will as well, but with the hitch.  

At 30 minutes that dip is going to be a problem with BB's wheelbase.  

Yes, 28:50 is where the diagonal approach kept her from dragging.  And 30 minutes is the Toyota on the same obstacle.  Taking it at an angle with Big Blue might be helpful, but he may well drag is hitch.

Gary Lewis wrote

And at 31:30 that "fin" is scary, but the "staying in your lane" analogy works for me.

That's one of the "exciting" parts for sure!


And you disappoint me!  I thought for sure you'd have some commentary on his commentary on Dragon's Tail at 34:04:  "This is the super sketchy, turn into it and feel like you're going to die downhill section.  It's so much fun!"

[Gary Lewis]

Yeah, I heard what he said, but then I've watched bunches of his videos and have gotten used to his ... malarkey.  (I'm a day or two late with that one.)  But I was a bit surprised when I went back to watch it again how many scrapes there are on the rock.  I'd have thought the line was a bit to the left, but maybe not.

And you are right, Big Blue can take lines that Toyota couldn't, or couldn't get through, so maybe the hitch won't drag quite as much as it would otherwise.  I probably have about the same amount of overhang as the Toy, so I expect to drag the hitch.  But I hope we don't mess up that Warn front bumper.

Oddly enough, Welder Scott wants that hitch, but then we've not gotten the metal together to make the bumper that would let me give him the hitch.  So I guess he'll get a scraped hitch.  

And the camera will give me some forward visibility that will make it less nerve wracking since I can tell I'm on the nice, black road that Jeff pointed out.  Plus, if the dip we are going into doesn't require a lot of articulation I can inflate the air bags a bit to raise the rear.

Anyway, let's file Hell's Revenge in the "maybe" column.  

[Nothing Special]

Gary Lewis wrote

Yeah, I heard what he said, but then I've watched bunches of his videos and have gotten used to his ... malarkey.  (I'm a day or two late with that one.)  But I was a bit surprised when I went back to watch it again how many scrapes there are on the rock.  I'd have thought the line was a bit to the left, but maybe not....

The yellow paint shows the line: center yourself on the diamonds, keep it between the lines.  The biggest concentration of scrapes is dead center on the trail, but I do see what you mean about a bunch of scrapes outside of the right line.  I'm not sure what that's about.  But if we do Hell's Revenge we'll need a pretty good reason to color outside those lines.

[Gary Lewis]

I'm pretty good at coloring within the lines. Have always thought it was wrong to get outside of them, and if we do Hell's Revenge I'll be extra careful.

[Nothing Special]

I thought it might be worth a little discussion about tools and spare parts.  I say that in spite of not being the most prepared person with respect to that.  Or maybe because?  Anyway...

The tools we'll use most are things I know you already have:  a way to air down and a way to air back up.  A while ago we talked about deflators.  There are a number of ways to do that range from a sharp rock to push the pin in the valve stem to some very involved system.  What I have and like, and I'm pretty sure you also got, was something like these that screw on like a valve stem cap and let air out to a pre-set pressure.  It's not necessarily the fastest delating system out there, nor is it the most flexible (in that you can't set them to a different pressure very quickly).  But they work well and very easily.

We've already talked about airing back up, and I know we both have on-board compressors (with some of us not having as fast compressors as others).  Something like a Power Tank is another option, but no reason for either of us to go there with the compressors we already have.

Otherwise for tools I go pretty basic.  I have a small ammo can that has a selection of basic hand tools: a few wrenches, screwdrivers, pliers, etc.  I usually throw in a 3/8" socket set.  And of course a lug wrench and a couple of jacks (one hi-lift and one hydraulic bottle jack).

I do have a larger tool box that I leave in the motorhome, but mostly that's just a better collection of hand tools.  A multi meter is about the most exotic tool I bring, and that's usually left in camp.

[Gary Lewis]

Bob - I've been thinking about creating a list of tools and supplies I'm bringing, and to me the easiest way to do that is to create a Word document and embed it in a post.  That's because then I can edit it and it'll show the edits next time anyone visits that post.

I know some people don't like that, but this is essentially our thread, so is that ok with you?  If so, I propose to put it in my first post in the thread since that will be the easiest to find.  Does that work for you?  Or would it be better to put it here in this discussion?

As you'll see, I bring a LOT of tools and supplies.  And since Janey & I won't have a motorhome with us it'll all be coming on the trail.  That includes a DVM, a whole bunch of hand tools, a spare ECU, belts, recovery equipment, a hilift & a bottle jack, wood to jack against, the deflators you mentioned, and even an awning and chairs in case we need to get in the shade.

So we could compare notes and make sure we have the waterfront covered.  Does that work for you?

[Nothing Special]

Sure, that's fine.  I might not be great at looking back to a post at the beginning, but I agree that would be the easiest to find.

I will touch on spare parts here (having hit tools above).  Again I don't tend to travel very heavy here (but I'm not saying you SHOULD go as light as I do).

About all I regularly bring is spare fluids.  Big Blue probably holds onto his better than Pluto, but I've needed  to add oil, brake fluid, ATF (aka power steering fluid) and coolant on trips (sometimes even multiple times per day ).  I also bring lube for the axles, trans and t.case, although I've never had to add those.

We aren't going to be going at it hard, so I REALLY don't anticipate breaking drivetrain components, but others recommend U-joints (both drive shaft and front axle), axle shafts (especially front axle outer stubs), driveshafts and locking hubs.  Of those the only thing I bring (and usually leave in camp) is driveshafts, and that's only because I ended up with two sets so I might as well bring both rather than leave the spares at home.

And speaking of spares, a tire is an obvious spare part that I do bring.

A collection of nuts and bolts is another good idea that I don't follow.

I'm not sure if this is a tool or a spare part, but I also have a "drive-away-lock" for my OX locker (a way to lock it manually if my air system gives up the ghost).

And spare valve stem caps for when I inevitably lose one airing down or up.


Back to tools, a couple jumper wires (short wires with alligator clips at both ends) have come in very handy at times.  And if you're going to bring spare U-joints you should have all of the tools you need to change them.  But that's something I don't need to worry about!  (and don't think you do either)

And a tire repair kit has been strongly suggested.  That seems like a really good idea, but given that I've never even had one flat when 'wheeling (knock on wood!) I've never got that round toit,