Big Brother is going 3G

[85lebaront2]

While on the birthday game, Dad's was May 21st along with my uncle who was married to dad's sister. Matt's is May 23rd (47) My best friend's is May 19th, also 78. He owns a 1995 F350 CC DRW truck, but his is a Powerstroke Diesel.

[BigBrother-84]

Gary Lewis wrote

As for #2, your birthday is July 1st?  And the whole of Canada celebrates it?  Cool!

Yep!  I am still humbly wondering if it’s the whole country celebrating me each year.

[BigBrother-84]

Just got an email from Bob (Rocketman’s CCInnovations), he’ll ship my voltmeter next week.
So, my 1G-3G swap will be a summer vacations project, somewhere between July 22nd and August 8th.

In the meanwhile, should I right now order a Voltage Regulator with LRC, or should I wait and see if I’ll have belt slipping?

Thoughts?

[Gary Lewis]

I'd go ahead and order the LRC and install it with the alternator off.  I'm pretty sure you'll have belt squeal at times w/o it.

[BigBrother-84]

Ok, thanks Gary for the advice.

Are there different models of LRC, I mean does my 3G needs specific type?
Or, are they all the same kind?

[Gary Lewis]

I think the regulators were the same for a long time but the brush carriers changes at some point.

This page from Quick Start shows a number of regulators, but I think this F795 might be what you want with a 2.5 second LRC.

Amazon lists a lot of regulators and most of theirs have the brushes with them.  But since you are getting a new alternator you should already have new brushes.  On the other hand, if you get the brushes with the regulator you don't have to make sure you get the thermal grease between the regulator and the brush carrier.

[BigBrother-84]

Thanks Gary, clear and precise, as usual.

[ArdWrknTrk]

I know the regulator plug went from oval to D shape at some point.

We all know if you try to make something idiot-proof, humanity will make a better idiot.  

I like Maniac Electric Motors.
They can fill your starter & alternator needs.

[BigBrother-84]

ArdWrknTrk wrote

We all know if you try to make something idiot-proof, humanity will make a better idiot.  

A kind of “progress”?

[Rusty_S85]

Gary Lewis wrote

Jeff - It is on its way.  And, by the way, here's a revised drawing from Will's thread called Alternator Upgrade Related Questions (was One-Wire Alternator Questions).  He pointed out the lack of the w/bk wire wrapping from the 3-wire connector to the stator lug, so I changed that.  And he asked about the big yellow wire going to the starter relay or the megafuse, so I show it can go either place.

Does that make sense?

One more change I would suggest is that the yellow/white sense wire from the 3G should be connected to the starter solenoid on the battery lug.  The distance that sense wire is from the battery could result in a decent change in voltage and a decent change in alternator output.

Another thing is from what I remember reading is that if the sense wire is on the alternator side of the fuse, if that fuse goes, the alternator will still see voltage that changes via the regulator.  On the battery side of the fuse if the fuse goes the alternator wont sense a change in voltage when the regulator commands it and will essentially shut down output from the alternator.

Many people short cut this wire looping it right back to the battery lug at the alternator, while this is cleaner it doesn't take into account what the voltage actually is at or near the battery.  I saw a diagram that went with a Remy alternator post that stated that with a sense wire fleet companies reported 50% reduction in battery charge time and a 30% reduction in battery warranty claim over alternators they had before without the sense wire.  Remy also states the sense wire for vehicles that don't have them should be fused and mounted directly to the positive terminal or the nearest positive common junction.  All the 1990s 3G wiring diagrams I looked up also showed this sense wire terminated close to the battery in a common junction lug no different than the 1G externally regulated sense wire was terminated close to the battery at the common junction lug on the starter solenoid.

For mine I am personally leaning towards using a male spade on this sense wire on mine and plug it into the sense terminal on the OE fender mounted regulator this way I am reusing the OE sense wire and fusible link to the solenoid.  I might change my mind however and just connect it directly to the solenoid with its own fuse, but I think it minimizes clutter on the battery lug at the solenoid to reuse that terminal.

ArdWrknTrk wrote

I know the regulator plug went from oval to D shape at some point.

We all know if you try to make something idiot-proof, humanity will make a better idiot.  

I like Maniac Electric Motors.
They can fill your starter & alternator needs.

The plug did change and if you get the one with the changed plug it poses a pro and a con.  The pro is the newer plug is easier to unplug with a wire fuel injector style clip you depress over the older tab you have to lift that faces the alternator itself.  The con is that connector is a bit of a pain to locate as I had to locate one for mine.

Regulator I went with on mine is a Motorcraft NOS unit under the number F5RU-10316-AA.  Has a 14.6v set point and has a LRC from what I could find of 6 seconds.

This regulator uses a pigtail found on the following vehicles.

Crown Victoria Police Interceptor : 1993 - 1995
Lincoln Town Car : 1993 - 1995
Mercury Grand Marquis : 1993 - 1994
Mercury Mystique : 1995 - 1999
Ford Contour : 1995 - 2000

Not to be confused with the D-shaped connector found on the 1992 - 2002 Crown Victoria's without the police interceptor package.

The all too common D-shaped connector for the 3G regulator typically found on many Ford/Lincoln/Mercury vehicles in the 1990s


The hard to find but I believe superior connector.


I don't know how many connectors there are, but I do know there's like four different regulator connectors when I was trying to find the one, I needed for my LRC regulator.

[ArdWrknTrk]

Rusty_S85 wrote

One more change I would suggest is that the yellow/white sense wire from the 3G should be connected to the starter solenoid on the battery lug.  The distance that sense wire is from the battery could result in a decent change in voltage and a decent change in alternator output.

Another thing is from what I remember reading is that if the sense wire is on the alternator side of the fuse, if that fuse goes, the alternator will still see voltage that changes via the regulator.  On the battery side of the fuse if the fuse goes the alternator wont sense a change in voltage when the regulator commands it and will essentially shut down output from the alternator.

Many people short cut this wire looping it right back to the battery lug at the alternator, while this is cleaner it doesn't take into account what the voltage actually is at or near the battery.  I saw a diagram that went with a Remy alternator post that stated that with a sense wire fleet companies reported 50% reduction in battery charge time and a 30% reduction in battery warranty claim over alternators they had before without the sense wire.  Remy also states the sense wire for vehicles that don't have them should be fused and mounted directly to the positive terminal or the nearest positive common junction.  All the 1990s 3G wiring diagrams I looked up also showed this sense wire terminated close to the battery in a common junction lug no different than the 1G externally regulated sense wire was terminated close to the battery at the common junction lug on the starter solenoid.

For mine I am personally leaning towards using a male spade on this sense wire on mine and plug it into the sense terminal on the OE fender mounted regulator this way I am reusing the OE sense wire and fusible link to the solenoid.  I might change my mind however and just connect it directly to the solenoid with its own fuse, but I think it minimizes clutter on the battery lug at the solenoid to reuse that terminal.

You seem to have this backwards.

If the alternator can only 'sense' declining battery voltage (or just "normal" -not charging-) battery voltage below it's -usual- 14.35V set point, then it will keep raising output (both amps AND volts) until it sees that.
I've seen voltages of 20 and alternators literally smoking because the sense wire failed.
or, in your scenario, the fuse, holder, connection, did

Think of it like this... What would happen if you put your house thermostat on the outside?
The thermostat is divorced from the internal temperature and the AC or heater will continue to run full tilt but never be able to affect what the thermostat is actually "sensing"

Almost the moment the megafuse is out of the circuit your battery is going to be headed towards its steady state of 12.6V, even without any loads placed on it.
The alternator is going to go full field, and it won't have any battery to absorb the charge.
That's a recipe for disaster.

[Rusty_S85]

ArdWrknTrk wrote

Rusty_S85 wrote

One more change I would suggest is that the yellow/white sense wire from the 3G should be connected to the starter solenoid on the battery lug.  The distance that sense wire is from the battery could result in a decent change in voltage and a decent change in alternator output.

Another thing is from what I remember reading is that if the sense wire is on the alternator side of the fuse, if that fuse goes, the alternator will still see voltage that changes via the regulator.  On the battery side of the fuse if the fuse goes the alternator wont sense a change in voltage when the regulator commands it and will essentially shut down output from the alternator.

Many people short cut this wire looping it right back to the battery lug at the alternator, while this is cleaner it doesn't take into account what the voltage actually is at or near the battery.  I saw a diagram that went with a Remy alternator post that stated that with a sense wire fleet companies reported 50% reduction in battery charge time and a 30% reduction in battery warranty claim over alternators they had before without the sense wire.  Remy also states the sense wire for vehicles that don't have them should be fused and mounted directly to the positive terminal or the nearest positive common junction.  All the 1990s 3G wiring diagrams I looked up also showed this sense wire terminated close to the battery in a common junction lug no different than the 1G externally regulated sense wire was terminated close to the battery at the common junction lug on the starter solenoid.

For mine I am personally leaning towards using a male spade on this sense wire on mine and plug it into the sense terminal on the OE fender mounted regulator this way I am reusing the OE sense wire and fusible link to the solenoid.  I might change my mind however and just connect it directly to the solenoid with its own fuse, but I think it minimizes clutter on the battery lug at the solenoid to reuse that terminal.

You seem to have this backwards.

If the alternator can only 'sense' declining battery voltage (or just "normal" -not charging-) battery voltage below it's -usual- 14.35V set point, then it will keep raising output (both amps AND volts) until it sees that.
I've seen voltages of 20 and alternators literally smoking because the sense wire failed.
or, in your scenario, the fuse, holder, connection, did

Think of it like this... What would happen if you put your house thermostat on the outside?
The thermostat is divorced from the internal temperature and the AC or heater will continue to run full tilt but never be able to affect what the thermostat is actually "sensing"

Almost the moment the megafuse is out of the circuit your battery is going to be headed towards its steady state of 12.6V, even without any loads placed on it.
The alternator is going to go full field, and it won't have any battery to absorb the charge.
That's a recipe for disaster.

And yet all manufacturers state to put the sense wire as close to the battery positive terminal as possible.  It was done this way when our trucks were new and it was still done with the 3G in the 1990s.

The charge wire is fused between the battery and the alternator and the sense wire is going to be between the battery and the fuse for the charge wire

Just like our trucks the sense wire hooks to the solenoid from the regulator and the charge wire has a fusible link in line and it connects to the same battery lug on the starter solenoid.  If this charge wire fusible link fails the same situation you speak of would be there, the sense wire is reading battery voltage with the charge wire not providing voltage/amperage to the battery circuit.

Even if the battery voltage dropped to 12.6v the alternator will only ramp up output to the voltage set point which on mine is under 14.5v, outside of a regulator failure the alternator would never put out more than 14.5 volts

[CSA]

Sir, I just wanted to mention that the diagram doesn't show the fuse for the regulator to B+ wire. This is normally protected by a fuse link on the alternator side of the fuse. I have found no definitive information for the need; but, I have found it this way in EVTMs that I have used.

'84 EVTM does not show regulator fuse link w/ammeter, does w/indicator. My '84, G1 100a alt large case, had ammeter and both links and the '89, G2 alt, harness that I used to fix the burnt fuse panel had ammeter and both links. ??

'99 Explorer EVTM (130a G3 alt) used fuses with a 30a for the regulator to B+ wire.

93 Mustang EVTM PwrDist 60-70a 2G

The pic is just to illiterate what I found in the harness.

As a 90~100A alternator was available on both the '92 Econoline with the 3G small case and on both E & F series with the 1G (large profile), I would recommend using the specified fuse links and wiring. Hope this is helpful, if not, please, let me know. V/R Chris A

[CSA]

I have my choke heater wire spliced into the white/black wire. Has worked with Ford and with Holley chokes. Inline 20ga fuse link needed before choke. V/R Chris A.

[Gary Lewis]

CSA wrote

Sir, I just wanted to mention that the diagram doesn't show the fuse for the regulator to B+ wire.

I'm not sure I understand what you are saying.  The B+ wire is the Bk/O wire which is the output of the alternator and we do show a fuse for that.  What am I missing?

[ArdWrknTrk]

Your alternator is reading the battery -ON THE OTHER SIDE OF A BLOWN FUSE-
The battery is going to immediately drop towards 12.6 from where it WAS charging.

The damn alternator is going to crank itself up to max (just like "ground here to test") and stay there, charging into an open circuit.
The windings and diode board have to try and dissipate that heat.

It's appalling that our schools fail to teach even the most rudimentary maths and science, but maybe I need to reset my horizons in a day and age where everyone gets a participation trophy.

[BigBrother-84]

Hooray!


I finally got all the main puzzle pieces!
1- Cluster Amp meter converted to Volt meter
2- Plug’n Play harness (thanks to Gary!)
3- 130A 3G alternator
4- 2.5 seconds LRC Voltage Regulator

Will proceed to the swap somewhere during my summer vacations (which begin next weekend).

But first I will have to rebuild the C-610 connector (that was cancelled and jumped somewhere in Big Bro’s past life).  Thanks (again!) to Gary, I have a good shape part to install.

I will document the whole process with picts and comments.

I’ll certainly need your advices as the project will go on!

See you!

[Gary Lewis]

Yippee!!!!  Glad you have all the pieces.  I'm along for the ride, although my grandtwins arrive tomorrow and I'll be playing with a French truck for the next week.  So if you need me you have my cell and can text me.  Good luck!!!!  

[85lebaront2]

Gee, Gary, maybe he's the one you should be asking about French trucks. I imagine I will be getting question on stovebolts from you and Ian.

[BigBrother-84]