Big Blue's Transformation

[grumpin]

I would probably go with the heavy duty. Especially with that gruntin’ 460!

[1986F150Six]

Gary Lewis wrote

So, it seems to me that I'll be fine with the D9 flywheel and should go with the 910 HD clutch set.  Thoughts?

Maybe ask the engine builder if he has contacts with someone else with an engine he built to similar power levels? They may have good input regarding their experience.

[Gary Lewis]

1986F150Six wrote

Maybe ask the engine builder if he has contacts with someone else with an engine he built to similar power levels? They may have good input regarding their experience.

Good idea, David.  He said the HD clutch is the way to go.  So it is on order.

And while I was at it I asked what his thoughts were about:

Throttle Body: OEM is fine unless you want it to really rock above 3,500 4,000 rpm

Injectors: 26# Accel from Summit Racing

[Gary Lewis]

Well, two steps forward and one backward is still progress.  And any progress is good - right, Jim?

Got the clutch kit in from LuK today.  The good news is that it came with two pilot bearings, both of which are true bearings and not bushings.  (The T19 has a smaller pilot on the input shaft than does the ZF5, and the kit fits both.)

But the bad news is that the pressure plate is bigger than the one that was on Big Blue previously and it won't bolt onto the flywheel.  The flywheel I have has three pairs of tapped holes, but the flywheel I need will have four pair of tapped holes, like the one shown below that is now on order from Amazon.

But, it won't be in until Friday the 6th, so I won't get the tranny installed until after then.  So I think I'll get the various plugs and taps for the plenums installed while the engine is on the stand.  And then install the engine and start working on the front dress.  While the serpentine bracketry is clean, I think it may need to be prettier.  

[Ford F834]

Gary the IDI has the same problem. There was, momentarily, a single mass conversion clutch that fit the 6 bolt T19 flywheel... but long since discontinued. Now anyone wanting to ZF swap a 6.9 must buy the 8 bolt clutch and flywheel to go with it

[Gary Lewis]

Jonathan - I briefly, and only briefly, thought about using the ZF clutch plate with the T19 pressure plate and the original flywheel.  Then I realized that I'd have a mismatched clutch and pressure plate.  And that down the road when my offspring need to replace that clutch they'll be confused.  Further, I remembered that mixing throwout bearings and pressure plates doesn't work very well when I tried it on Dad's truck - and had to pull it apart and replace the throwout bearing.  Plus, this pressure plate is much bigger than the one for the T19, and Scott assured me that I need the HD clutch.

So I bit the bullet and ordered the right flywheel.  

[ArdWrknTrk]

Hopefully your Zf style flywheel has better QC or prints than mine did!  

You're going to need the extra bite of the HD clutch.

Now, to teach your kid to drive it without destroying it.

[85lebaront2]

Powder coating the aluminum castings?

[Gary Lewis]

Guys - I'm 99.9999% sure I responded to your posts, but I guess not?

Jim - Yes, I need to teach him to drive a stick.

Bill - Yes, I may well PC the aluminum castings.

But, the castings/brackets got me to thinking about the onboard air issue. That's because if I am going to go with a York/Tecumseh compressor then now will be the time to fabricate a bracket. So, I want to resurrect the discussion that we had starting back about here with Bob's post.

It seems to me that there are essentially three ways to make this happen:

1. York Compressor: This article on The Ranger Station has a good how-to for this approach. And I have the compressor. But I'd need a new pulley/clutch combo to use the ribbed belt on the 460, and I think those are over $100. And by the time I piece together all of the other stuff, like the coalescing filter to remove the oil, the cutoff switch, relay, air tank, fittings, etc I can see this easily running into several hundreds of dollars and a lot of time to make it happen. But, I'd have a system capable of a lot of air and a tank of maybe upwards of 10 gallons capacity.
2. Electric Compressor: This would be essentially the same as #1, but I'd have to buy the compressor. Smittybilt makes one that supposedly does 5.65 CFM, although at what pressure it doesn't say. And the price of $107 makes it a swap for the pulley/clutch on the York. Plus it simplifies things since you don't have to have the coalescing filter as there's no oil. But you still have to get the tank, fittings, cutoff switch, etc. So it would perhaps come in a bit less expensive than the York and be a bit simplier, but have less CFM capacity.
3. Onboard Air System: In this approach I'd buy a purpose-built system that comes with everything, including the electric compressor(s), cutoff switch, relay, tank, fittings, hose, etc. Viair's Heavy Duty 10005 system puts out 2.5 CFM, albeit at 0 PSI and with a 33% duty cycle, and cost $342.

My guess is that I could probably have over $300 in either of the two build-your-own systems once all the bits and pieces are purchased. So that makes me think that a complete system is a good solution and one that will save me time during the fabrication/installation stage.

But, that raises the question of how much air I really need to re-inflate the tires. Is the Viair Heavy Duty system adequate? They have others with lower CFM but higher duty cycle ratings for roughly the same money. Or even others with higher CFM and continuous duty ratings.

Thoughts?

[Nothing Special]

From using a few different 12V compressors, my thought is that you'll never regret paying a little more now for more cfm.  I'm pretty sure I've said this before here, but the air compressor on my Bronco (and the one on my earlier CJ5) is primarily there to run the "toad" brakes.  So it can't be engine-driven (the engine isn't running while I tow it) and it can't draw (much) more current than the truck can supply through the trailer wiring.  But it takes a slightly obnoxiously long time to reinflate four 33x10.50-15 tires from 15 psi to 30 psi at the end of the trail (I'm sort of dreading my plan to go to 35x12.50-15 on beadlocks so I can air down to something like 5 psi).  And sorry, I still don't remember which Viair model I have.

So out of the options you list I'd suggest staying away from #3.  2.5 cfm at 0 psi doesn't sound very exciting and the 33% duty cycle might start getting you worried as you have it running constantly for quite a while.

Between the first two, I think the electric would be simpler to put together, which is certainly worth something.  But if the York puts out significantly more air than the electric (I don't know their ratings) I'd certainly lean that way.

Edit to add:  I still don't know the model of my compressor.  I'm pretty sure it was a Viair that I bought in ~2006.  But I wiped off the label on it.  I can't see the model (that's underneath, not visible unless I take the compressor out).  But it's rated for 1.48 cfm at 0 psi and 100% duty cycle.  So the 2.5 cfm of the electric compressor in option 3 would be better than what I have.  But I'd still be concerned about the 33% duty cycle.

[Gary Lewis]

I was afraid you were going to say that, Bob.  I currently have 33's and some day might consider 35's, so do not want to have something where I have to wait around a long time to air up at the end of the trail.

I think I'll spend a bit of time today to get specs on the various Viairs as there aren't that many, and compare them to the output of the York and the Smittybilt.  And maybe an ARB or two.  I need to see facts in a spreadsheet so's I can get my head around the situation.

.................

[Nothing Special]

It's hard for people to wrap their head around how bad 12V compressors are.  Or more accurately, how expensive it is to make a really good one.  I have a cheapo 110V compressor in my garage that I paid something like $100 for.  It's easy to think "I just want something like that" for a truck.  I've had this compressor so long that there are no labels left on it, but it's something like 1 hp.  That's 746 W.  To get "something like that" on a truck you need a motor that will draw 55 amps (using 13.5V with the engine running).  That not only requires serious wiring from the battery, it also requires serious wiring in the windings.  Running 55 amps through a motor gets it HOT.  So to get it to survive either you need LOTS of copper (resulting in a very expensive motor) or you can't run it very long (and it's still a pretty expensive motor, even with a lower duty cycle).  So even pretty good 12V compressors tend to be way below 1 hp, and therefore a lot less capable than my cheapo garage compressor.

(And Gary, I'm sure you know this, but for anyone who doesn't, the reason it works in the cheapo compressor in my garage is that the garage compressor runs on 110V.  Power (wattage) = volts x amps, so at 110 V that 1 hp draws a little under 7 amps.  That gets a lot less hot, so the motor can be made a lot cheaper.)

[ArdWrknTrk]

Ya know Gary, I have a 3000W inverter.
You could do just like I said, and buy a 120v compressor.
You already have the 3G and two batteries.....

I don't know how much it would cost to ship, but it's got to be a better answer than running 6Ga. wire all over the place.

I understand that you like to make things as difficult as possible, but if you've got room, having clean 60Hz 120V power (4Hp worth!) Would make a LOT of things easier.

[85lebaront2]

Other option, alternator is a 3 phase unit with diodes to rectify 3 phase A/C into a wavy DC output. They sell phase inverters to convert 3 phase to single phase, proper sizing of a pulley with the PTO feature on the EEC-V box so that it will produce 60 Hz power. Extra alternator can (a) be electrically disabled by not powering the rotor (you won't have a voltage regulator) and (b) mounted where the smoke grinder went. In that location it would share the alternator belt.

Gary, you're an engineer, go for it!

[ArdWrknTrk]

Alternator belt with serpentine front dress?  (This is an EFI after all)

But the PTO is intriguing...
I'm sure you could run a massive compressor off of that.
It could be as complex as Gary chose to make it.
Electronic engagement, clutched for free running when up to pressure, water cooled even!

[Gary Lewis]

You'se guys have certainly thrown another option on the table!

This HF 8 Gallon 1.5 HP 150 PSI Oil-Free Portable Air Compressor sells for $140 and delivers 4.1 CFM @ 90 PSI.  And it only pulls 12 amps, which is 1440 watts at the rated 120 volts.  That would give me everything needed, assuming that I can use that tank.  (Need to go back and re-read Ron/reamer's measurements to see if he measured that compressor.)

As for the inverter, The Inverter Store says:

Surge is the maximum power that the inverter can supply, usually for only a short time (usually no longer than a second unless specified in the inverter’s specifications). Some appliances, particularly those with electric motors, need a much higher start up surge than they do when running. Pumps, compressors, air conditioners are the most common example-another common one is freezers and refrigerators (compressors). You want to select an inverter with a continuous rating that will handle the surge rating of your appliance so you don’t prematurely burn out the inverter. Don’t rely on the inverters surge to start your equipment because inverters don’t like to operate in their surge mode unless the manufacturer claims to have a longer surge time than normal.

But the owner's manual on that compressor doesn't give starting current.  So I need to do some more sleuthing to see if I can find a similar compressor that does have the starting current rated.

JADELearning says:

Often, during the initial half-cycle of electrical current flow experienced at motor startup, (Note: A half-cycle in a 60 Hz electrical system equates to 1/120 of a second duration of time) inrush currents reach levels 20 times greater than the normal current levels experienced during the motor’s normal operating speeds. After this initial inrush of current, the motor begins to rotate. At this point the initial starting current subsides, reducing to a level of current equal to 4 – 8 times the normal running current for that motor. This reduced, yet still largely exaggerated current, is sustained only briefly, as the motor quickly reaches full running speed, where current then subsides to its normal operating level.

So, if it the starting current on that compressor is 6 times the running current then we are looking at needing an inverter of 8,640 watts.    HF has a 5000 watt continuous/10,000 watt peak inverter for $400.  That's a whole lot of inverter, but the combo is still not too bad price wise since I want an inverter anyway and that gives a lot more air than the 12v jobs.

Hmmm....

[85lebaront2]

Jim, the poly groove (not serpentine) system on the 1988-97 460 in it's factory configuration includes a smoke grinder about where the V-belt engines mount the alternator.

[Gary Lewis]

Bill is right, and where the smoke grinder sits in that pic is where the York would go.  I checked out the mounting when Huck's engine, looking much like that one, was on the stand before I took it apart.  Making a bracket doesn't seem like it would be difficult at all.  I'd just need the polygroove pulley/clutch, which I've just seen for $135, and the oil accumulator/feedback system.

As for an alternator to create 60 cycle AC, no thanks.  I'm not even sure this ECU supports the PTO feature, and I'm even less sure there's a parameter in it to allow adjusting the RPM.

Jim - The PTO feature is an input to the ECU that tells it the PTO is going to be used so it should up the idle speed.  I hope to use that to spin up the alternator when running the winch - or maybe a massive inverter?

[grumpin]

That big inverter could come in handy, run a coffee maker, espresso machine, maybe a George Foreman grill! Charge your devices, endless possibilities...

[Nothing Special]

I'm not saying these aren't all cool ideas.  But with this conversation starting with the idea that a $342 onboard air system might be a good option because it's cheaper and easier than a York compressor or a Smittybilt compressor that would still need the rest of the system, methinks this is sort of going the expensive / complicated route now.

If you want to be able to run an electric grill, or a table saw in your camp site, sure, go for it.  Personally I'd go back to options 1 or 2.