460 starter issue

[mat in tn]

a question for the 7.5 guys. we had an f350 brought to us to resurrect since it was kinda given up on who knows when. it has obviously been worked on. haha one of the issues is that it does not start (or even attempt to) reliably. the starter acts and spins but engagement is roughly ten percent of the time. so we pushed it in today after discussing with the customer who claims that the guy who put the starter on said the flywheel is bad. we are prepared to swap flywheel and got it in and on blocks and started further inspection. the first thing that I noticed was the missing inspection cover. not a great start. the second that I noticed was the absence of a separator plate between the block and bell housing. I intend to test the starter with a couple washers to shim it back about what I expect a plate to be. in case the lack of a plate is the issue. it seems rather small but what do you think? I don't deal with many 460s and I looked to see if the manual/automatic mis fit was possible same as the Windsor pattern.

[ArdWrknTrk]

The 'inspection cover' IS the the separator plate, AND also provides the piloting diameter to positively locate the starter.

Unlike a diesel the spacer-locating plate-bellhousing tongue/vent are all one in the same and have to go on before the flywheel/flexplate.

Engagement depth is fairly critical.
Flywheel and flex plates use different starters,
Is this a T-19 or a C6 truck?

I spent a decade chewing through starters, as Gary and Bill can attest.
I'm pretty well versed in 460 starters!  

[mat in tn]

this is exactly what was expecting to get. however, I did wake up at midnight thinking that the starter is at the same plane as the block either way. this truck looks to have had a clutch replacement in the not-too-distant past which is to be expected and I know it's easy to have a separator plate off with the flywheel off and not put it back. I have seen too many guys skip a step and not be willing to go back and correct it. another question though. the inspection cover is more like one on a turbo 400, sitting at an angle and covering the "chin" so to speak. I'm expecting a separator plate with a flat bottom line to clear that. this is a four speed btw with a large pto. it's a dump bed f350.

[ArdWrknTrk]

It's all one plate with a bent back chin, two bolts into the bellhousing and a louver to let smoke and dust out.

There was only one manual behind a 460 from '83 (when Ford introduced the hydraulic clutch) until the Zf-5 came out in late '87 production.
The T-19.
Three flavours though. Close ratio diesel, wide ratio 2wd 460 and lower 1st wide ratio 460 4x4.

Suggestions:
Put a 15/16 deep on the crank and turn about a 1/4 revolution. Does the starter engage cleanly now?

Pull the starter and see how chewed that spot of the ring gear is.
It always stops at the same spot because 7&8 fire one right after the other.

You'll need to pull the flywheel in any case to install the plate, but stick a test indicator on the back of the block and check if the crank flange is bent and the flywheel wobbling.
This is what was/is eating my starters.

Good luck!

[mat in tn]

well, I spent a couple hours investigating this today. juggling about three projects today. i ran the part numbers of starter, flywheel. researched the missing plate and I see exactly what's wrong. primarily the missing plate. however, the starter has been on a while but it's not too old, like the clutch. the clutch looks very clean. i imagine bolts were lost at the same time as it's a mixed bag and the starter was held tight by the top bolt that attaches from the rear yet the lower was tight with three washers. so, I removed the bolt, washers and reinstalled the bolt and sure enough it bottomed with a gap. it needed four washers! it has been moving around. very distinct wear pattern into the bell housing about 25-30 thou deep. I carefully replaced the starter paying close attention to fit and placement seeing as how the alignment from the separator plate is not there. secured it well and it turned over positively. filled the carb with fuel and it started right up, and I was watching the choke backing off as it ran out of gas. success! now to the fuel issue that it was delivered for. I'm sorting these issues out at this point, and I don't consider the starter issue solved unless it gets the proper plate.

[ArdWrknTrk]

I'm going to assume this truck has Hot Fuel Handling with electric pumps in the tanks?

Not to tell you your job but start with the fuse links, confirm the inertia switch, jumper the oil pressure cutoff before condemning the relays in the system..

After that, go looking at power at the pumps themselves (unless the exact problem is already known...)

[mat in tn]

that is exactly where I am. I pulled a lot of "field splicing " out today to get back to the ford wiring.  I'm looking up wiring colors and making notes of tests for tomorrow.  the tank selector valve pigtail is so degraded that its half missing. just a skeleton with the female bits and crusty, exposed wires. I need a five-pin flat blade pigtail to splice in, but I have not found one yet. neither of the existing relays had any load connections at all yet I found no voltage being sent from the ignition switch. inertia switch is not "popped" so the next thing is fuse-link like you say.

[ArdWrknTrk]

Don't forget the oil pressure cut-off appended to the sender behind the EGR.

Though the pumps should receive power -at all times while cranking- through the blk/pink bypass wire.

I told you, I know the schematics in my head because I'm autistic....  

[ArdWrknTrk]

If you've got no pump on either tank with the starter turning it's at the switch valve.
I assume this is the 5pin blade connector you mean.
Look at Pollak (or Standard who owns them) for the aftermarket valve pigtail I think you're talking about....

[ArdWrknTrk]

Pollak made these valves for EVERYBODY back in the day.
OEM's as well.
The pigtails are available, but I don't know exactly what yours looks like.

There's something like this, and other configurations as well

Connector For Fuel Tank Selector Valve(Pack of 1) https://a.co/d/7DxWvAL

[mat in tn]

either tank is an interesting point. as I said it's a bit of a mess. the rear tank filler is folded up beneath the dump bed. there is a switch with three wires hanging out from underneath the dash. two black and one burned. as if they switched power to a ground. a bit more but you can see its going to take a little wiring. but first I have to install a 289 in a cougar to stay on schedule.

[ArdWrknTrk]

What year, the Cougar?
 XR??

I had a buddy that was DEEP in the weeds with these back in the day.
Now he specializes in another 289 vehicle, the Sunbeam Tiger....

Can you see Get Smart?

[mat in tn]

1967. a barn find brought to us to resurrect. engine with no valve covers or intake. engine locked. I've been on it for about five weeks. waiting on machine shop, sourcing parts etc.
 now a sunbeam holds a special place. like a 289 cobra

[ArdWrknTrk]

Sounds like my "Happy Place"
You seem to have made a sweet little life for yourself there Mat.  

I wish you all the success in the world.

[Gary Lewis]

A Sunbeam Tiger?  

[ArdWrknTrk]

This surprises you?

They're an alpine with a 289 shoehorned in.
Bill would like this because it's exactly something Shelby would do.

Joe Chiapetta in Florida specializes in them exclusively.
He was the biggest Cougar freak back in the day.

[Gary Lewis]

No, it doesn't surprise me that it was done.  I'm well aware of that.  But I've never actually seen one.  That was the surprise.

[ArdWrknTrk]

You've got to remember Get Smart!?!
Right???

https://robbreport.com/motors/cars/1967-sunbeam-tiger-mk-ii-auction-worldwide-auctioneers-1234674769/

[mat in tn]

one of my trips to new England, ten years or more I pulled into a rest stop in pa I believe. and a survivor condition tiger pulled in beside me. seemingly under my excursion. ended up having a nice chat and he showed the car off as if he had done it three times a day for years. not hotrodded at all. faded paint, rusty manifolds. and a simple chrome air cleaner behind a points dist. just a driven car. perfect.    

[Gary Lewis]

I do remember Get Smart.  So I've seen one on TV.  Just not to lay hands on.