460 starter issue

[mat in tn]

so, I spent a bit of time today on this 460 f350 and got a bit more test results. frustrating as hell trying to rig the starter to work over and over. ran a jumper with a switch from pos terminal to front tank pump and ran the pump. started the truck and ran it for a couple minutes and checked things. shut it off and did a few corrections. dist vac was hooked to manifold vacuum and not timed. egr was run to timed vacuum so it was essentially a controlled vacuum leak. number four plug wire shook off when started. then messed with trying to get the starter back in a working position, again. started it, it ran well all but on 7 cyl.  number seven showed no life at all yet the plug looks to be trying. base timing is good. but a couple degrees high. timed advance response is good. carb tweaked a bit and idled well at 800. with a dead miss. pulling a plug wire, one at a time and listening while watching the tach all but #seven showed life. some 50 rpm drop and some 15. very irregular. smokes like a broken ring. comp test showed zero response, but we were fiddling with getting the starter to work again. and I said enough. the engine needs a rebuild! maybe not a full blown reman but a rebuild at least. while its out the dang separator plate can be installed and so on.    

[ArdWrknTrk]

I'm sure by now the lower starter bolt needs a helicoil.

The distributor is supposed to be connected to manifold vacuum -through a restriction- and the thermal switch in the water neck.
If the coolant gets much above (atmospheric) boiling the valve opens applying full manifold, and more timing to increase idle speed and get the water pump turning.
Is there no routing diagram and tuning sticker on the rad support?

[mat in tn]

there is but I'm just doing the investigation first give a recommendation for how to make this a dependable truck. all hoses were removed from all vacuum switches. I set it up as a basic setup just to get it running so I would at least know what I could expect from it. a dead cyl is still my biggest discovery.

[ArdWrknTrk]

Leakdown or borescope?  🧐

[mat in tn]

I will try to get a look inside, but I don't want to lose another day trying to get a starter fit good enough to get a second or third opinion of something that is getting better defined as needing a come apart either way.
with lower end making "loose" bearing noises a few times, strong puffing out the intake side of the pcv while pcv is pulling strong also, blue smoke from exhaust, a dead cyl.,and needing to come out to install a separator plate, its really only going in one direction.

[ArdWrknTrk]

You're absolutely right.

I just think about all the repairs I've made where the customer is in denial and "wants proof". 🙄

A 15 second borescope video showing the shattered piston lands or hole in the piston from detonation is good medicine for this type of idiocy.

[mat in tn]

so true. makes the point of a diagnosis and less of a sales pitch.

[85lebaront2]

Jim, Shelby did do it for Sunbeam. Funniest was after Chrysler acquired Rootes group, they tried to stuff the 273 into the Tiger, too big to fit.

Sunbeam's West coast division tried doing the swap by retaining the Alpine's monkey motion steering linkage. End result, a 2 seat roadster that plowed worse than a Square Bird with a 430 MEL in it.

Shelby American used an MGB steering rack and pushed the engine back in the body, yes plug changes rival a 4 speed Mustang CJ with a smoke grinder, but the cars scoot and corner.

[ArdWrknTrk]

I was trying to say that you liked it because it was a Shelby thing.

I may have a good vocabulary but I can be cryptic at times..

[mat in tn]

well, I got to the shop to plant the 289 and saw an f350 with the hood removed
so, we are approved to rebuild the 460. nothing extra but a reliability rebuild. so, I got it out and on the stand that I just got the 289 off of and it sagged. I got to get one of these! haha. head gaskets being torched between 4 and 3 plus an exit. head gasket blown between 7 and 8. cyl. 7 has a distinct irregular wear pattern along with definite signs of the engine having been rusted in the bores and then being thrown in the truck. cutting torch hole for the oil filter to go through the k member. about the only good thing to report would be thanks to the last work, none of the mix and match bolts were too tight. four bell housing bolts. and the fan bade was installed backwards on the clutch. checked the casting number and it's a d1 casting.

[ArdWrknTrk]

If you think the 460 is heavy, wait until you get to put an IDI on the stand!  

'71 engine was said to be the worst for smog detonation, but it has the lower deck height, so has good compression.
Ford opened up the chambers on the D2 heads, and raised the deck on D3 blocks.
Internal balance means you have to be careful to get the right zero balance flywheel or flex plate today.

I've mentioned MANY times about the dented cross member for the IDI and 460 with the 90° filter adapter and screwy lower radiator hose.
Hacking a hole is methed up.

I'm surprised you were able to break the head bolts loose without flipping the stand over!  

Let's see some pics of the Cougar!  

[mat in tn]

I knew instantly that an adapter was supposed to be there. I know nothing about the lower hose yet. another oddity was I noticed an odd rubbing on the outside of the power steering belt and found it rubbing on the adjusting screw of the steering gear. it's a little close for me. that will be another issue to solve if I'm not lucky enough to correct it with engine placement. this is not a restoration! but a "get it running reliably" job. workin man's truck.  just an observation.... should one be able to turn a 460 with a 3/8 ratchet trying to remove pulley bolts? the engine spins with far less resistance than expected. I am not a big guy and use breaker bars often, but I don't even need more than an 8"-3/8 ratchet. but I used a breaker bar on the head bolts that is for sure. and intake too. very little compression and number seven piston is pitted like water intrusion. or even a small screw. I'm hoping to avoid machine shop as it will save the customer 1k and three weeks, but I can't say it yet.  

[ArdWrknTrk]

I have upgraded to the Saginaw pump.
Do you want a picture of mine?

No adapter on the '71 car that engine came out of.
I can tell you that '70's car brackets put the front dress into the cross member.

When I got rid of my smog pumps I tried an alternator bracket from a CJ Torino and the alternator sat too low.
I tried some other 429 car brackets and none of them fit.

I ended up with an L&L alternator bracket (I think Scott has one too)

[ArdWrknTrk]

You have 4 cylinders with zero effective compression....
And these smog engines had 8:1 at best.

It's going to be pretty easy.  😉

[mat in tn]

we call it a clue

[ArdWrknTrk]

1985 460 van Saginaw setup







No, I can't be bothered to rotate them.
I have more opinions about the forum software and my having to send an apologetic email to every new member, but that's another rant for another thread.

Hope these help.  

[85lebaront2]

Mat, here is my 1972 vintage Lakewood folding engine stand with my new 460 on it:

[mat in tn]

that's a whole lot better looking than the 460 I have to work with. I am not detailing it as its not needed or requested but it will get paint at least. I just have to. I could not look the customer in the face if it's not at least clean and painted.

[85lebaront2]

I have a better set of valve covers, those are just to cover it up.

[ArdWrknTrk]

Question for you...

What year F-350?
If it's manual ('83 on) how was a rear sump pan implemented with the 71 engine?
'71 has a dipstick in the timing cover....
All '80/ trucks have a rear sump.
There's an extended pickup that hangs from a stud in the passenger side #4 main cap.

With an internal balance crank I don't even know if the pickup tube will clear the counterweights.
I know you can't use a D9 block because the sleeves project too far.