Rethinking The 3G Conversion Pages/Process

[ArdWrknTrk]

The regulator is just a dummy, so everything looks like an old style 1G

It does make it more of a plug n play setup

[dirtymac]

Can you clarify?  It is passing power through it so the original setup works?  If it failed, you couldn't just swap it with an off the shelf voltage regulator?

[ArdWrknTrk]

The 3G has an internal regulator.

It's just a dummy chrome box for them to make their connections, and accept the existing harness plug

[dirtymac]

So there "should" never be a need to replace their box?  I may reach out to them to get more info on what's inside the box.

[ArdWrknTrk]

You can ask....
It's probably "proprietary information" 😂

I'd bet if you tore one open there'd be a bunch of potted splices and likely a chunk of weight to make it feel more substantial.

I don't have a real high opinion of them.
Kinda like Power master or DUI.
They don't offer anything substantial other than the hype about their products.

Not to say "bad" products, just that they over sell and under deliver.
(quality isn't what it should be for the price)

[Gary Lewis]

Well folks, we sorta have a winner!  Down below are pics of C323 from the ignition module plugged into C610, without modification, and a comparison of C323, on the left, and C610.  I was WRONG!   

However, Auveco says their Item No: 20844 has #16 wires.  And if you look at the EVTM, not only does that connector carry all of the power to the cab, but in trucks with an aux battery it supplies all of the current from the alternator to the aux battery - which could be a bunch with a 3G!  So I'm not convinced that we should use the Auveco connector since it already has #16 wires in it and they aren't removable from what I can see.

The #16 wire wouldn't even be a good "fuse link" as those are usually only 4 sizes smaller than the main wire, which appears to be a #10, and are covered by a special insulation to prevent melt-thru.  So I think we'd have to find the connectors w/o wires already in them to be safe.

Thoughts?

[ArdWrknTrk]

I already suggested just running a wire from where the two fuselinks for the cab splice into 37 that goes into C610, but not everybody likes that idea....  🙄

[Gary Lewis]

But that wouldn't be plug & play.  You'd have to bypass C610.

And if we can't find a good C610 connector that can carry the current then maybe we should think about a replacement connector for C610.  The use would have to cut the connector off and add the new one.  But that's going to put a lot of people off.

Here's the cab side of C610 and you can see there's only 4 wires and the black thing is S101 where those two fuse links join the yellow #10 of Ckt 37:

[Gary Lewis]

Or, maybe I missed your point.  Maybe you didn't mean to cut C610 off completely, but to cut the yellow #10 off near it, put a terminal on it, and take it to the megafuse holder?

[ArdWrknTrk]

We've already heard THAT splice was completely destroyed.
Maybe I'm the only one who's conscious of wire gauges and listening to the conversation?

I understand the rabbit hole you've dug but I'm not going down there.

[Gary Lewis]

My intent for this thread was to rethink how we are recommending that people do a 3G upgrade.  I'm not talking or thinking about anyone in particular.  If we want to talk about dirtymac's harness we should do it in his thread.

What I was hoping we could do is to create a generic plug & play upgrade to a 3G alternator for those who can't or don't want to do any wiring.  But if they have problems with their existing wiring then that will take some specific repair.

As for the rabbit hole, I got lost.  Hard to see where I'm going down here.  

[ArdWrknTrk]

I'm sure Will isn't the only one who's S101 is toast from decades of use/abuse.

Perhaps we should consider that adding a 3G to/through a clapped out plug is a recipe for disaster?

[Gary Lewis]

It is very possible that there are plenty of people whose harness is bad.  As you can see below, Splice 202 on the harness I pulled apart a few days ago is bad.  Toast.  And using it in a 3G would have been problematic as the Y/LG going to the ammeter was not part of the splice anymore.  Maybe this isn't unusual?  Perhaps that's why the ammeters don't work?

But S201 is encapsulated in rubber, so I would think it would normally be good.  The one on this harness appears to be and won't come apart with hard pulls.

So I'm hoping we can come up with a plugin harness for the engine side of C610.  Maybe the only way to do it is to use old harnii that have the large #10 yellow wire in a good connector?  In fact, I'm planning on trying it with the harness I have, and will take pictures at each step and then do a writeup.

However, there are a few measurements I need, like where the fuse holder can go and, therefore, if the 12" of #10 yellow coming out of the connector is enough to get there.  So I've asked Jeff if he could take some measurements and, as a reward, he can have the harness that I create.  Plug & Play!  

But for those whose harness isn't good enough we need another approach.

[dirtymac]

I did some looking over my wires last night and the short version is that it is a mess, but I think my C610 connector may be ok.  I'll post some pictures of the somewhat cleaned up wires and the previous owner's modifications over there.

As for the rest of the conversation, I think Gary is right in that many people may be turned off by cutting a bunch of wires and connectors out.  Jim makes a lot of good points, especially the safety aspects.  From the bits I do know, most of these plugs area sealed to protect them from the environment.  Replacing that with splices and crimp connectors may not provide the same quality and could be a recipe for disaster.

With that said, who is the intended audience?  I'm here because I love older Ford trucks.  I have enough sense to know they're old, in bad shape, and need careful, safe attention.  I also want some modern upgrades.

Not everyone here is going to want to do this upgrade themselves.  But maybe they have a friend, relative, or mechanic that is capable with some good instructions.  I do think you have to limit yourself to a small number of options (less than 5, but probably closer to 3).

A lot of these threads have involved newer EFI trucks, which is not my situation.  There are many things that could come into play with an upgrade like this but with a few decent options, and feedback from the community, I think this upgrade is doable for most folks.

[Gary Lewis]

The intended audience is whomever wants to do a 3G swap.  Which is why I'm thinking that we need to have something like three levels of options.

Having said that, the level of capability certainly does vary given the different options, so let me think through that a bit:

Bare Minimum: In this option they'd take the alternator output to the starter relay and add a fuse, both of which take adding a big connector to a large wire.    And they'd also have to wire the light green/red wire from the existing harness to their 3G harness, and loop the yellow/white wire back, which takes crimping or soldering.

Cleaned Up: In this case they could unplug connector 610, bring wire 37 (Y) from S101 to the battery + stud of the fender mounted starter relay, and bring the fused output of alternator there as well.  And then the LG/R and Y/W wires.  So this actually requires more work as they'll also need to add a large connector to the Y wire coming from C610.  But you don't have to break into the dash to swap out the ammeter to a voltmeter.

Done Right: In my mind this is the one we've been talking about where someone builds a harness using either existing C610's or finds a source for new connectors which take #10 wire.  So this is either even more work than Cleaned Up if we can't find someone to build the harness.  And you need to get into the instrument cluster to swap out the ammeter.  This one could take zero wiring if someone will make the harness, or the most wiring of the three - but not all the much in my way of thinking.  (Said the man that added EFI to Big Blue, installed a power distribution box with fuses & relays for the HVAC, headlights, fog lights, etc.)

So help me, folks.  How hard is all of this?  Does it make sense?

[BigBrother-84]

ArdWrknTrk wrote

Maybe I'm the only one who's conscious of wire gauges and listening to the conversation?

Jim, you’re not alone.  I am following this experts debate very carefully.

Gary Lewis wrote

I'm not talking or thinking about anyone in particular.

Gary Lewis wrote

What I was hoping we could do is to create a generic plug & play upgrade to a 3G alternator for those who can't or don't want to do any wiring.

Well Gary, I hope that you’re not using the past form because you already lost your faith.
There’s no rush, take your time.

If you Eureka for a lazy solution good for Jeff (kind of lowest possible mechanic level if the forum), it will be good for any dummy member.

[ArdWrknTrk]

Another thing to think about is that you are going from a 40-60A alternator to a 95 or 130A alternator that has been proven to be able to put out 130 or 160 amps reliably.

So, the two fusible links might save the cab wiring but 610 (and it's corroded connections) is going to fail if 37 doesn't.

Just using your "plug n play" solution isn't going to provide any more power in the cab for a stereo or whatever other load someone has in mind (6-way heated leather seats from a Lincoln?)

[Gary Lewis]

Jeff - Have you looked at your email recently?  

Jim - You are right that there are a number of things that could go wrong.  So we'd need to tell the people what they are.  We have been recommending going with a 3G for several years, but what we are now realizing is the scope of the potential problems.

I think it is fair to say that originally C610 was capable of carrying 60A since many of the trucks came with that size of alternator.  And now we realize that C610 also charges the aux battery, so if that battery is low there will be a lot of current flowing to charge that battery.

But by adding a 130A 3G we could see even more current flowing through C610.  And if someone were to put a killer stereo in the cab there would be even more.  So obviously we'd need to tell them that they should not do that.

Instead, any additional load needs to be supported by a new fuse box and separate wiring.  And if they have an aux battery then they should consider providing it separate wiring as well.

[dirtymac]

Is a secondary fuse box a possibility?  What I'm thinking is ,leave the original wiring package in place including the fuse box.  New high power upgrades would go on a new, separate fuse box.  Is that possible/safe with a common ground?  I'm not sure how something like that would get wired in (basic electricity knowledge here).

I feel like my modern vehicles frequently have what appear to be multiple fuse boxes.

In this way, all of the original stuff would stay in place.  You'd have a new fuse box for all the new fancy stuff.  And if you sized it right, you could move original stuff over to the secondary as necessary.  You would definitely need to label things.

[Gary Lewis]

I have two fuse boxes, actually Ford power distribution boxes, in Big Blue.  The one on the passenger's side has fuses that replaced the fuse links and relays for key-on, headlights, and the HVAC blower.  And on the outside it has a megafuse that serves as the fuse for the 3G alternator and a connection point for the alternator's charge cable plus the cable to the fender-mounted starter relay.

I have the schematics for that if you want to do it.