Planning For Big Blue's Trip To Ouray

[Gary Lewis]

Ok, I've started laying out routes using Gaia. So far I just have Day 1 and Day 2 in Gaia, but would like your thoughts on them, Bob. (And others as well.)

Day 1 is exactly what we did last fall in the Jeep we rented and should give us a good way to break into it. It is a total of 85 miles and goes over Last Dollar Road and into Telluride for lunch, then back out and over Ophir Pass. If we have plenty of time when we hit 550 we could go through Silverton and then some of those trails back to 550, or just head north to Ouray.

Day 2 is the Alpine Loop but coming back over Engineer Pass. I know you said that Cinnamon Pass was boring, Bob, but I think I'd like to do Engineer Pass. Or, is Corkscrew Gulch the better trail?

[Nothing Special]

Gary Lewis wrote

Ok, I've started laying out routes using Gaia.  So far I just have Day 1 and Day 2 in Gaia, but would like your thoughts on them, Bob.  (And others as well.)
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Day 1 is exactly what we did last fall in the Jeep we rented and should give us a good way to break into it.  It is a total of 85 miles and goes over Last Dollar Road and into Telluride for lunch, then back out and over Ophir Pass.  If we have plenty of time when we hit 550 we could go through Silverton and then some of those trails back to 550, or just head north to Ouray.

I've never done any of those trails so I can't really comment.  But you know most of what you're getting into!  And everything out there is pretty great!

Gary Lewis wrote

Day 2 is the Alpine Loop but coming back over Engineer Pass.  I know you said that Cinnamon Pass was boring, Bob, but I think I'd like to do Engineer Pass.  Or, is Corkscrew Gulch the better trail?

I would DEFINITELY suggest doing Engineer Pass.  Getting up on top of any of the passes gets you the best views though, so you definitely want to do that!

If it was me I'd go up Engineer and/or Cinnamon from the Silverton side and then come back down the same side.  Corkscrew Gulch would be one of the options for how to get out.  (It's probably an easier trail than Engineer Mountain Road, but more fun and challenging than most of the roads/trails down to Silverton.)

But it's not me.  Lots of people do the Alpine Loop and love it, so if you want to do the Alpine Loop you are in good company.  From what I've seen the "other" side of Cinnamon Pass is a nice, very scenic drive.  The only thing I can say "against" it is that there are a lot of nice, very scenic drives out there and we didn't find Cinnamon Pass to be as fun as some of the others.

[Gary Lewis]

Bob - Thanks!  I definitely was asking for that input.

Saying it another way, you think the Alpine Loop beyond Cinnamon Pass and back to Engineer Pass is too easy, meaning not enough fun.  We will have had E.A.S.Y. on Day 1 with Last Dollar Road, so we probably don't want something that will be a dawdle on Day 2.  But, go up those two passes from the Silverton side, at some point, and come back down.

On a tangent, I'm using Gaia as well as your maps and a National Geographic Telluride/Silverton/Ouray/Lake City paper map to plan this.  And I'm getting lost as I can't easily find Corkscrew Gulch or Cinnamon Pass on Gaia when I'm planning.  But I just discovered that I can type in "Corkscrew Gulch" and someone has saved the trail to the public maps so that trail pops up.  So, if I were to bring up the various trails on the map and print them I could lay them out around me and it would make it MUCH easier.  That would give me the overall perspective I need - I think.

My hope in all of this is that we get a basic plan set for each day that keeps us from going back over the same trails to get to where we want to go, but allows us time to explore some of the MANY side trails.

So maybe this afternoon I can print off maps of some of the trails and work some more on getting the basic daily plans mapped out and come back with new plans.

Thanks!

[Nothing Special]

As I said back in this thread where you were starting to think about this trip, I use two maps.  One is very simple so it's easy to not get lost in the clutter as you look at the map.  The sketch I made and the map you showed on page one of this thread work for that.

But those maps don't have enough detail to show you everything, so I also have a topo map for the Uncompagre National Forest.  I'd really recommend having a set of maps like that, even with GPS apps.  At least for me I'm old-school enough that sometimes it's just a lot easier for me to spread a paper map out and look at the big picture.

I still try to get as many of the trails I plan to do loaded onto my GPS, so I'm not saying you're going about it wrong.  But as you are finding, you can't assume that all of the trails will automatically show up on your phone/GPS.


By the way, when I told Lesley about you asking about doing the Alpine Loop she asked "wouldn't that make for a really long day?"  Again, I haven't done the Apline Loop, but I think she's right.  It's not short, and you won't be going very fast on much of it.  So if you want plenty of time for exploring, trying to do the entire Loop in one day might not be a good way to do that.


As far as not retracing your steps, I don't think that'll be entirely possible.  A lot of the fun stuff is east of highway 550 and there are only four basic routes into that area: Engineer Mountain Road, Corkscrew Gulch and the two dirt roads leading up from Silverton.  On our first trip we only did one of the Silverton roads and that only once.  And on our second trip we didn't do those roads at all.  So we end up doing Engineer Mountain Road and Corkscrew Gulch multiple times.  But that's OK by us.

(I suppose adding Engineer Pass and Cinnamon Pass to Lake City gives two more in/out options.  But those are long trails to a LONG highway drive back to Ouray, so not something we've ever thought about doing.)

[Gary Lewis]

Bob - I have your maps printed out as well as the Nat Geo map nearby.  But even then I've found it difficult to spot the trails on Gaia.  But with the recent discovery of being able to search for them on Gaia things are going to go much better, I'm sure.

My hope is that i can create an overall map with all of the trails showing and in the notes show the color code for each trail.  That would make it easier for both my brother and I to get our heads around where the various trails are.  (I'm almost there but he's not even started, although he has spent time up there on OHV's in years past, so has some knowledge of them.)  And I intend to take printed copies of the overall map as well as the daily "plans".

Speaking of daily plans, I'll probably have several options for some of them.  For instance, on Day 2 I might have Option A be what you've suggested of seeing the summit of both Engineer and Cinnamon passes and then going down Corkscrew.  But Option B could be the whole of the Alpine Loop.  Why?  Because in the detail it shows how many miles each is, and as Lesley said that would make for a very long day.  But, my brother and his family have stayed at Lake City, so it is possible he will want to go there and I want to be prepared.

I see what you are saying about routes in and out of the area east of 550.  And the two roads down into Silverton don't look to be very interesting, so that leaves Engineer Mountain Road and Corkscrew Gulch as the access roads, meaning it looks like we will get very familiar with them.

[Gary Lewis]

Bob - I'm making progress. But it isn't as easy as I'd hoped.

The main issue I've having is with the terminology, meaning what various people call what trails. For instance, you say the trail from 550 to Poughkeepsie Gulch is Engineer Mountain Road. But Gaia calls it CR18. And Alltrails calls it Mineral Creek OHV Trail.

But by printing out various things and laying them beside your maps I'm starting to get my head around it.

And there's a learning curve to Gaia. Fortunately I found the user's manual and got most of my questions answered, so things are starting to come together.

So, let's try this. Here's what I think you did on your Day 1 where you took in Engineer Mountain Road - Mineral Point - Animas Cutoff - Cinnamon Pass - Sherman Road - Cinnamon Pass - California Gulch - Hurricane Pass - Corkscrew Pass - Corkscrew Gulch. Except I left out Mineral Point and Sherman Road, although I can put them in pretty easily. But is this correct?

That's 38 miles round trip from our hotel in Ouray, and we could take all sorts of side trips from that basic route. Or, we could change Cinnamon Pass for Engineer Pass. From what you said earlier that might be better?

[Nothing Special]

First off, if you follow the route you have mapped you'll be in for a surprise!  I don't know if it will be a good surprise or a bad surprise, but it won't be what you're expecting!

Assuming you are going around the loop part clockwise, at the point where it turns pretty much due south are the words "Poughkeepsie Gulch."  The trail south from there to where the spur goes east to Cinnamon Pass is Poughkeepsie Gulch.  That's by far the most difficult trail in that area.  I'm not saying you can't do it, but I don't think you want to do it accidentally!

A safer route would be to keep going east at that point, all the way to the trail that comes north from Animas Forks (that's what I called the Animas Cutoff).  If you look at my sketched map below you can either stay on the pink trail (what I call Engineer Mountain Road) or take the short green side trail (Mineral Point).  Mineral Point is kind of a cool abandoned mine site if you have the time, but there's a bathroom on that section of Engineer Mountain Road.  Or with just a little backtracking you can get to both.  I don't think there's much difference in difficulty between those two options.

When you hit the Animas Cutoff you can turn north to go to Engineer Pass (with a short side spur to Odom Point if you want).  If you do you'll turn around at the top of the Pass (unless you want to head to Lake City) and come back to this point.

Whether you go to Engineer Pass or not, you'll then go south to Animas Forks.  Close to Animas Forks you can turn east to go to Cinnamon Pass if you choose to go there.

As to whether you should do Engineer Pass, Cinnamon Pass or both, that's really up to you.  As I said, the best views are from the passes (Odom Point is good too), so if you have time you might want to do both.  I don't recall either trail being much worse/better than the other.  I think both are pretty narrow with some pretty tight switchbacks, but they should be plenty doable in Big Blue.

Then from Animas Forks go west on the trail you've marked, up California Gulch.

Shortly after California Pass you'll get to where your loop catches this trail.  That's the top of Poughkeepsie Gulch.  If you drive a short (easy) way down Poughkeepsie you'll get to Lake Como, which is a nice place to stop for lunch, and is probably worth the detour even if it's not lunch time.

If you have more time and want to see what Poughkeepsie is all about, you can go farther down it from this point, keeping in mind that you don't want to drive down anything that you aren't sure you can drive back up.

The "best" (or worst) part of Poughkeepsie Gulch is the loop off to the west, near where it says "Alaska Basin" on your map.  You can go down that as far as you are comfortable and will likely get to the top of "The Wall" (there is a somewhat tough section before you get to The Wall. I know Big Blue can make it down and up that, at least in the condition it's been when I've seen it.  But I don't know if it would be fun for you.  And again, don't do it if you don't think it will be fun).  If you think you want to drive down "The Wall", first walk down and look at the trail as it heads down farther.  The first section of that is kind of steep, loose and narrow.  I wouldn't want you stuck between that and The Wall, not knowing if you could make it either way.

Before (or instead of) going down the main part of Poughkeepsie you can also take a look at the bypass.  The trail you marked does take this bypass.  I only took that once, and I wasn't really thinking about how a full-size truck would fare on it.  It's not a very difficult trail, but it's not a boring dirt road either.  And there were some really tight turns near the top that I'm not sure a full size truck could make.  But those will be right near the main trail, so if you get to that point you can walk down the bypass to see what you think.

If you do go all the way down Poughkeepsie Gulch you'll come out on Engineer Mountain Road again, so turn west and head back to highway 550.

If you don't go all the way down Poughkeepsie, then you'll continue on the trail you've marked, over Hurricane Pass and down Corkscrew Gulch to highway 550.  That's definitely the quickest way to Ouray from the upper end of Poughkeepsie.


So all of that was said assuming you were planning on going around your loop clockwise.  If instead you were thinking you'd take 550 to Corkscrew Gulch and go up Corkscrew, all of what I said still stands, but in reverse.


And you were saying how the different names people and maps use for the trails is hard, a couple people I've seen on YouTube had maps where Poughkeepsie Gulch was marked as Mineral Point.  That will really mess you up!

[Nothing Special]

Gary Lewis wrote

Bob - Thanks!  I definitely was asking for that input.

Saying it another way, you think the Alpine Loop beyond Cinnamon Pass and back to Engineer Pass is too easy, meaning not enough fun.  We will have had E.A.S.Y. on Day 1 with Last Dollar Road, so we probably don't want something that will be a dawdle on Day 2.  But, go up those two passes from the Silverton side, at some point, and come back down....

Looking back a bit I hadn't really commented on this and I thought I should.  Are the east sides of Cinnamon and Engineer Passes too easy and therefore boring?  That depends on your perspective.  I'm not the world's greatest rockcrawler, and my Bronco isn't the best off-road rig in the world.  Not even close on either.  But I've been doing this for quite a while and I'm pretty good at it.  And my Bronco is a pretty capable vehicle.  Lesley has been doing this with me too.  So for us it was easy.  But then again, on our last trip to Ouray we met a couple people in a side-by-side that had just come over Cinnamon Pass and said they had been pretty freaked out by it.  So what was easy in our sight was kind of over-the-top (pun intended) for others.  Compared to most trails it is pretty easy.  But there are some narrow shelf sections and tight switchbacks, so I can see how people not accustomed to it could be scared.

Is it boring?  Lesley thought so, but again, a lot of people drive the Alpine Loop.  It remains a popular trail, so others must not find it too boring.  What's the truth?  It's definitely a nice, scenic trail.  But there are a lot of nice scenic trails in the Ouray area.  I'm not saying it's boring, or not worth doing.  But from my perspective there are other trails that are more worth doing, either because they are more challenging or because the scenery is more varied.

And this is all based on driving part-way down, and then back up, the east side of Cinnamon Pass.  I don't have any reason to believe it got to be more difficult, or more special scenery if I had gone farther, but I don't know that it didn't.  And I haven't been on the east side of Engineer Pass, so I'm extrapolating quite a bit to lump it in with the east side of Cinnamon.

So bottom line, I don't recommend the east side of those two passes, but that's just me.  There are others who would tell you something completely different, and they're not wrong either.

Gary Lewis wrote

.... I left out Mineral Point and Sherman Road, although I can put them in pretty easily....

This is something else I meant to comment on.  I did touch on Mineral Point above.  I do think it's a worthwhile short detour if you are near it.

Sherman Road is another thing entirely.  For starters, it's quite a ways down the east side of Cinnamon Pass.  If you aren't doing the Alpine Loop it probably adds at least 4 hours to your trip.  Even if you are doing the Alpine Loop it still probably adds 1 - 2 hours.  And I don't know if it's worth doing.  It starts below tree-line and we turned around before we got above treeline.  It wasn't a particularly interesting or scenic trail on the section we were on.  It might have got a lot better had we kept going, but Lesley in particular was ready to be back on the west side of Cinnamon Pass so we turned around.  It also might have some great camping spots if you were doing a trip that way, but we weren't and it sounds like you aren't, at least this time, either.  So no, I definitely wouldn't make Sherman Road a goal on this trip if I were you.  Again, not saying it's a bad trail, just probably not worth it for you on this trip.

[Gary Lewis]

Bob - Thanks for the very detailed replies.  I want to think through what you said, change my maps, and see what you think.

But for the most part I understand what you are saying.  Perhaps we want to save Poughkeepsie Gulch for Day 3 or Day 4 and take Animas Cutoff and California Gulch as you suggested for Day 2.  (Or, maybe Day 1 as I want to talk to my bro about how easy Last Dollar is.)

Anyway, thanks!  Let me get some other things done and I'll incorporate your suggestions onto maps and be back to see if I've done that right.

And, as I think about it, I may change the color codes on things.  Heretofore they've been arbitrary, but if I made them green for easy, blue for moderate, yellow for more difficult, and red for hard I could then show them on an overall map of the area to help my brother and I decide what to do on any given day.  And you could tell me if I've gotten them right.

[Gary Lewis]

Bob - I didn't get to the mapping until just now. But I did change the previous map to cut out Poughkeepsie and go down Animas Cutoff as you suggested - I think. Right?

I'm not saying that's what we are going to do, but I do want to get it to match your suggestions. And, I made it blue to represent a "moderate" trail, as opposed to Last Dollar Road where we found minivans. Would you agree with that as well?

With the side trips to Mineral Point and Engineer Pass that's 43.7 miles. Is that reasonable to do in a day? Will we have time left over? Maybe we'd want to go have a look at The Wall and see Lake Como on the way.

I'm thinking this might be a better Day 1 than Last Dollar Road & Ophir Pass. The only thing about that route is that Ophir has a shelf road which, from the bottom, looks dangerous. But when you get on it the thing is quite wide and there's nothing the least bit tough or challenging. You just drive slowly and stay on the trail and there are no switchbacks. So I'm now leaning to the route below as Day 1 as from what you've said it'll give more challenge than Ophir.

Thoughts?

[Nothing Special]

Yes, that's the route I'm thinking of.  It's definitely doable in a day.  You won't want to get a REAL late start.  I'm not saying you need to be up at 5:00 or anything, but I'd say if you're rolling out of town around 9:00, getting back in time for dinner shouldn't be a problem.  Maybe later today I'll try to look at when we did that loop (or close to it) and see how long it actually took us.

I don't think the Mineral Point side trip is as long as you show.  I know that's where it says Mineral Point on your map.  But if you look at the short green side trip on my map, that's all the farther we went.  Maybe we didn't make it all the way to a geographical feature called Mineral Point, but it got us to the old mine.  I'm not saying you need to change your map, just pay attention to what you're seeing when you're out there and go where it seems to make sense (the trails are generally pretty easy to follow, there aren't a ton of them to get you too confused and you're up above treeline so you can see pretty much forever).

Lake Como probably only adds about 10 minutes of driving (it's pretty much right at the top end of Poughkeepsie).  And driving down to the top of the bypass and back is maybe another 20 minutes or so.  Getting all the way down to The Wall is a little harder to guess because there are a couple places where you'll want to stop and scout a bit.  But it won't add hours to the trip.

As far as difficulty level, if it's a three-level difficulty scale, with minivans on level 1 and "vehicle damage likely" on level 3, then yes, this is all a level 2.  But Engineer Mountain Road up from 550 is probably the third-most difficult trail out there (after Poughkeepsie and Black Bear).  It's not that hard, but there are places you need to pay attention to the rocks or you will hit something, there are some pretty steep places, and there are some VERY narrow places.

As to whether this should be your day 1, how many days will you be out there?  Unless you decide to play on Poughkeepsie or try your hand at Black Bear, this loop includes the hardest trails you'll do, and likely some of the best views.  If you only have 2 days you might want to start with this and then decide what you want to do again on day 2.  But if you have more time you might want to leave this for a little later in the trip.

I'll probably try to get back to this more later, but I don't have any more time right now,

[Gary Lewis]

That's exactly the kind of info I was looking for, Bob.  Thanks!

We will be 'wheeling for four days.  So if Engineer Mountain Road off 550 is that tough then maybe we should go back to Plan A and use Last Dollar/Ophir Pass as Day 1 and this as Day 2.  But, Ophir Pass doesn't have anything that is a challenge.  Nothing tight/narrow, and no big rocks.  In fact, while I did forget about a couple of switchbacks, they are just tight turns in fairly level ground.  So that won't be doing much to get us ready for others.

Given that, I wondered about other places to learn and use as Day 1 and thought of taking Imogene Pass into Telluride and then Ophir Pass back to 550.  But Alltrails includes this about Imogene Pass:

Do not take this trip lightly. The road is rocky, steep and narrow in places and passing can be dangerous. Stock SUVs should have low-range gearing, 4-wheel drive, high clearance and skid plates. Experienced drivers only.

But your trip report said:

After lunch in the park we headed back to Ouray over Imogene Pass.  Mostly it's a pretty easy trail, but there are some "playgrounds" on both sides near the pass where you can take some optional lines (and there was a port-a-potty there too!).  Overall it took us about 3 hours to drive the 16.7 miles from Telluride to Ouray.  My wife asked what the big deal was with Imogene since so many people had asked if we'd done it.  The only thing I could think of was that it's a novices Black Bear.  Steep, shelfy and tight switchbacks that can make it exciting (just not as steep, shelfy or tight as Black Bear).  And since I heard the Jeep rental places don't allow you to take their vehicles on Black Bear (or Poughkeepsie), Imogene is probably one of the scarier trails many go on.

So that doesn't sound all that bad for a Day 1.  We could do Ophir Pass and get a bit of experience on a shelf road, then lunch in Telluride and take Imogene back to Ouray.  As said, Last Dollar has minivans, so it won't teach us anything and was really just a way a pretty way to get to Telluride and then Ophir Pass.

[Nothing Special]

I was going to suggest Imogene as a good day 1 choice.  Keeping in mind that I was driving a pretty capable Bronco, it was an easy trail.  But if someone was in a stock Ford Escape they would certainly have to pick their lines.  And I doubt you'll see any minivans!

As to requiring an experienced driver, you need to have a pretty good handle on your vehicle, as well as a calm enough disposition to not freak out when you are approaching another vehicle on a shelf road.

True story as an example.  On a Boy Scout trip we were driving up the road to a trailhead to hike up Mount Princeton in Colorado.  The plan had been for my F-350 crew cab and another leader's Suburban to haul people up the road, but the trans went out in the Suburban the day before (he was able to get it fixed that day, but we were down a vehicle).  So I had to run shuttle service, taking a group up, going back for a second, and then making two trips in the afternoon to get everyone down.

On the second trip down the Suburban owner was riding with me when we met a vehicle coming up on a narrow section.  I backup up into a "wide" spot on my left to let the other vehicle by.  The Suburban owner was freaking out that there wasn't any room.  Mind you, this was with us on the high side of the trail and we were well below tree-line!  I pointed out that he could fold my huge mirror in if he thought the other vehicle needed more room, but the other truck could have made it pretty easily anyway, and he didn't look worried.

So I'm glad he wasn't driving his Suburban there!  And Imogene Pass is certainly a road that someone like that would have trouble with too.

[Gary Lewis]

Ok, that sounds like a plan for Day 1.  We'll do Ophir first as it will get us warmed up a bit given the loose shale at one point on a shelf road, but nothing to worry about at all.

Then into Telluride for lunch, and back over Imogene.  Or, is one way better than the other on Imogene?

Then Engineer Mountain Road/Engineer Pass/Animas Cutoff/Hurricane/Corkscrew for Day 2.  But we might go down Poughkeepsie and see The Wall to see if we want to come back there on Day 3.

And for Day 4 there's still the possibility of Black Bear.  But I'm not saying we are going to do that.  One worry I have is the switchbacks.  With the Bullnose trucks you have a foot pedal for the emergency brake, and the one on Big Blue is either off or on.  So I'm wondering how "comfortable" it is going to be to hold the truck with the e-brake, come out a bit on the clutch so it won't roll, and then pop the e-brake off.

I'm thinking of the turns I've seen where you have to get the front wheel ever so close to the edge in order to have enough room to effect a turn, and it is that which has me a bit un-nerved.  I've enough though about using the chocks I have in front of the back wheels to make that safer.

Thoughts?

[Nothing Special]

I've only ever done Imogene as a way to return from Telluride after going over Black Bear, so I can't really say if it's better one way or the other.  I will say that it's... interesting finding the trailhead in Telluride!  You go through a residential area, and then sort of through someone's back yard to get on the trail.  I don't know how hard it would be to make the correct turns going onto Imogene from the Ouray side.  It's easy to find your way out but I can't speak to finding your way in.

I don't use an e-brake starting on hills in 4-low.  I keep my right foot on the brake pedal as I start to let off the clutch.  When the engine starts to bog down I slowly let off the brake, making sure the truck is moving the correct direction before I take my foot off the brake pedal!  Really low gearing and a hand throttle both help with that, but I did it with my stock '85 F-250 as well (~60:1 crawl ratio, so really pretty low there too).

I think I gave you a link to a video showing a truck going around The First Switchback (capitalized because apparently that's the name of it, it's actually the second switchback but I'm told it's called the first switchback, I don't know, it doesn't really make sense to me).  Anyway, that's the tightest switchback (maybe "first" means "preeminent" as opposed to "before second"???) with a big rock you are turning around.  Making that turn without the rock biting the sheetmetal would be my biggest concern.  People do drive fullsize trucks down Black Bear, but it's no gimme.  And there's no way to go see it before being committed to completing it, unless you want to take a pretty long hike (at elevation) or can get a ride from someone else (which would take most of a day including getting back).

I'm not trying to talk you into or out of doing Black Bear.  As I've said many times, it's not that hard of a trail, but it's no joke either.

[Gary Lewis]

LOL!  I see what you mean about finding the trailhead in Telluride.  Below is what Alltrails shows, and for anyone else reading this, that's downtown Telluride with 145 being the main street.

On the brake, my overall gear ratio is 56:1, so maybe I could start the same way?  I don't have the hand throttle but that 460 doesn't kill easily.

And yes, you sent a link to that turn/switchback.  That's the one I was thinking of where you have to almost hang the LF off the edge to have enough room to turn before hitting the rock.  But, the solid front axle certainly turns shorter than the TTB's, so I do have an advantage.  And with my bro having the handheld radio we should be able to negotiate that turn if other full-sized trucks have.

Anyway, I'm not saying we will do Black Bear, but I do want to have that last day where we could.  

[Nothing Special]

Gary Lewis wrote

....  On the brake, my overall gear ratio is 56:1, so maybe I could start the same way?  I don't have the hand throttle but that 460 doesn't kill easily....

Try it at home, maybe putting a tire up against a curb or something to make it a challenge.  You can also turn the idle stop in a bit before you get to where you might need it.


And on a complete tangent, I forgot if I told you about the song "Black Bear Road" by CW McCall.  I think it might have come up earlier, but if not, look it up, it's kind of fun.

[Nothing Special]

Nothing Special wrote

Yes, that's the route I'm thinking of.  It's definitely doable in a day.  You won't want to get a REAL late start.  I'm not saying you need to be up at 5:00 or anything, but I'd say if you're rolling out of town around 9:00, getting back in time for dinner shouldn't be a problem.  Maybe later today I'll try to look at when we did that loop (or close to it) and see how long it actually took us....

We didn't do that exact route, but we did go on all of those trails.

On our first day we did basically your route except we went over Cinnamon Pass to Sherman Road instead of going up to Engineer Pass (we did go to the mine at Mineral Point).  According to my GPS, that day was 74 miles in 10 hours (including 2 hours stopped).  Cinnamon Pass was 31 miles and ~3.5 hours of that (including ~1/2 hour stopped), so the rest of the day was 43 miles in 6.5 hours with ~1.5 hours stopped.

On day 4 we went up to Engineer Pass, with a side trip to Odom Point for lunch and another side trip to Yvonne Pass (sort of).  That part of day 5 was 7 miles in ~2 hours, with almost 1 hour stopped.  Taking out 2 miles in 1/2 hour for Yvonne Pass, that's 5 miles in 1.5 hours (including 1 hour stopped) for Engineer Pass and Odom Point (that included our lunch stop, hence the long stopped time).

Combining those would give about 48 miles in 8 hours, including 2.5 hours stopped for your proposed loop.  Not a short day, but not ridiculous at all.  And it does include some time for exploring.


The drive to Lake Como from your route was only 1/2 mile and ~8 minutes (one way).  Getting down to the top of the bypass is another 0.2 miles / 3 minutes (one way).  And from there to The Wall took us about 25 minutes to go 0.6 miles (one way).  Expect that last part to take you longer as that includes the toughest part of the trails out there not including The Wall or Black Bear.  So you can see what those detours might take.


I should mention that we didn't spend any time at Animas Forks on this trip.  You probably will want to stop there for a while to look around, which will add some stopped time (unless you don't spend as much time at some of the stops we did make).

[Gary Lewis]

Bob - Thanks for getting into all of the miles and times. That's a big help. And Gaia is pretty close to your miles at 44, but that doesn't include the 1 mile round trip to Lake Como.

Anyway, the 8 hour figure is one of the keys as if we hit the road at 9 we could expect to be back at 5ish if we had no other stops. In other words, we have plenty of sunlight to check out other trails or just take in the scenery.

But, let's talk about The Wall a bit. The map below is from Alltrails as it is easier to read than the Gaia one due to the colors. But note 2 says:

Important Right Turn

After a long steep climb up a hill with very loose rock, bear right at an important fork. Straight soon dead-ends.

But isn't there a bypass? The "straight" road isn't it?

Anyway, please tell me more about The Wall. I think we will want to go down to it to check it out, but don't quite understand where to park and walk to do that.

[Nothing Special]

There is a bypass.  There didn't used to be, so the AllTrails description might be old.  But if you are going up the trail (from north to south) the bypass starts at note 2.  Going straight there is the bypass, turning right is the "main trail", which include The Wall.

I don't specifically remember the "important fork" at note 3, but there are a few little pullouts that allow people to get around a traffic jam (with some help from the traffic jammers).  That might be what they are talking about.

Generally I like going up difficult trails rather than down them.  It makes them more challenging, but it also makes it easier to bail out by turning around if I find myself in over my head, or if I break something.  Most people seem to agree with me, at least on Poughkeepsie, because most of the traffic seems to be going up the trail (from north to south) most of the time.

Still, I'm recommending that you come in from the top (the south end, by Lake Como).  That's because the top of the trail is easier than the bottom, and it's also a shorter drive to get to The Wall.  So that gives you your best, easiest chance to get to where you can see The Wall and make up your own mind.

Going down from the top you'll stay on the main trail when you get to the top of the bypass.  (You might not see the bypass there, the main trail goes straight and is much more apparent.  The bypass is a pretty small turn off to the right.)

Soon you'll get to a place where the trail splits into several options going down into a bowl.  If you're like me the first time I drove Poughkeepsie (which was driving down it in 2000 when I was a lot less experienced) the options here might be a bit intimidating.  If I recall correctly there's nothing that looks that likely to damage anything, but it does seem steep and sandy, like it might be hard to get back up if you need to.  Don't sell this section short.  In the grand scheme of things it's not all THAT hard, but it probably will be the hardest trail you've done so far.  I'm pretty confident Big Blue can make it down and up this section, but I'm not there to see what it's like now, and I'm not the one that needs to be confident.  Don't do it if you don't want to.

If you choose not to do this section you won't want to do The Wall either, but if you want to see it, it's not that much farther down.  So park anywhere you aren't blocking the trail and walk down (keeping in mind that you are around 10,000 elevation and will need to walk back up).

Whether you walk or drive down to The Wall, don't worry, you'll know when to stop!  Like the bowl you just went past, The Wall is a bunch of different trails coming up out of a bowl.  There's lots of room on top to park somewhere out of the way and look around.

The easiest way down and probably up is a long sandy trail down the right side / up the left side.  But that was closed off with a cable when I was there in 2018.

The next easiest is a short rocky drop / climb on the left side going down / right side going up.  Going up the right side of this climb is the easiest, but the breakover angle at the top catches most vehicles.  Still, if you are going up you can try it.  Worst thing is that if you drag you back back down.

The left side of this climb (again, the climb is on the right going up, but I'm talking about the left side of the right side, if that makes sense) is harder, but most vehicles don't get hung up.  You might lift a front tire (which can be pretty exciting!) or you might just sit and spin.  But there is a winch point above this section (a steel eye set in the rock), so winching is an option.

If you are driving down The Wall I think this "left side of the right side" (which is now the right side of the left side as you look down) is the best bet.  You're going down so traction isn't an issue.  And as long as you stay straight on the hill you'll fall to the right place!

The middle section (to the left of the section I've just been talking about as you look up the hill) apparently has been easier at times, but both times I was there it was harder.  And if you take the right side of THAT route you are very likely to dent your roof on the rock.

Anyway, that's The Wall.  It's definitely harder than the bowl above it, and again, don't do it if you aren't pretty confident.  This trail is the real deal.

Below The Wall there's a narrow trail that snakes down through some rocks and sand, eventually ending up at an easy trail leading over to where the bypass breaks off.  This narrow section again is tougher than most of what you'll see in that area, but it's easier than The Wall.  Still, make sure you are confident that you can either get down that section or back up The Wall before going down The Wall.

Past where the bypass rejoins the trail is easy relative to what you just went past.  But it's still one of the hardest trails in the area.  It's steep and kind of like pea gravel in places, so lockers give a lot more confidence going up (your TrueTrac/OX will be fine here).