New Member New Build, looking for Direction

[Jbird2200]

Thank you to all of you.  The information provided will certainly save me much time, money, and aggravation.


I've pretty well scrapped the idea of the powerstroke. While those trucks seem to be much more available in my area and the power is much desired, I don't want this to be a 5 year project either, and the benefits just don't seem to be worth the effort/cost.

I will primarily be using this truck as a weekend warrior.  Towing, but not necessarily heavy loads will be roughly once a month.

A few more questions that after some searching, I'm still uncertain of.

I'm starting to narrow down the options.  I'll be buying a complete donor truck regardless.

I think I've narrowed it down to either an 87-91 IDI 5 (ZF) speed 4x4 extended cab, or an 89-91 IDI E40D 4x4 extended cab.  Not going to be exactly easy to find, but I'll travel (if anyone happens to know where one might be).

Couple questions:
1. Going to an E40D, the above things previously mentioned in other posts are required.  What about the shift patter for the sake of the dash? My 84' is a C6 auto truck originally.  From what I can tell there are the same number of shift points for display/shifter purposes. C6 = PRND21 and E40D = PRN(OD)21. For the sake of wanting to maintain the original interior I have, is the E40D a much better option?
2. I'll be cutting into the floor of the truck regardless as I'm going to 4x4. Can anyone confirm ZF5 vs E40D fitment in an extended cab bullnose? I'm assuming the ZF5 just require replacement/cut of current tunnel/cover and sounds like E40D might? require modification?
3. After some consideration, I don't know that the option of swapping everything into this truck and then converting to 4x4 is such a great idea.  I'd literally have to swap everything...I only have a clean interior and body on a pretty bare frame.  There is some wiring, which appears complete.  I need to reassess exactly what all is still there.  But, am I going about this the most effecient way (Body swap vs. entire drivetrain swap and then 4x4 conversion?).  Thoughts/opinions are very much welcomed.

The guy I bought this from had mentioned he had superduty axles for it as well that he'd sell as he was planning to build up new radius arms and mount those, but that sounds like more fab work that I'm likely comfortable with, and I'd have to hire that work out.

4. For anyone who has swapped cabs/beds, is it worth it to have a post-style lift? I've considered buying one for a few years now, how much easier would it make this whole endeavor?

Regarding my "improved' comment regarding other drivetrain options other than the 460/c6 option, it just seems to me that that is definitely the least efficient option (mpg), and possibly performing option.  The only thing I gain by going that route is maintaining the original drivetrain, and thus ease of retaining interior components.


Thanks again for all the comments, much appreciated.

[FuzzFace2]

4. For anyone who has swapped cabs/beds, is it worth it to have a post-style lift? I've considered buying one for a few years now, how much easier would it make this whole endeavor?

I did my stander cab flare side without one. No money or head room for a lift in my garage.
I was able to lift the cab, stripped other than windshield, off the frame my self.
I had plastic horses I could kick under the cab once I lifted it up 1 side at a time.
I had to pull the rear axle to clear the horses so I could pull it out from under the cab.

On a crew cab it may be a little heavy so a crew to help lift would be of help.
Or maybe you can set up a engine crane and a jig made to fit the top to lift the cab off the frame?

Guys make a wood jig to fit across the door openings so not to mark the cab roof that fits the crane.
I did not care as this cab was toast when I bought the truck, roll over.

Dave ----

[Jbird2200]

Thanks Dave, I do have a fairly large engine hoist, and have also considered installing a trolley style hoist in the rafters of my shop, for moderate loads. Either of those would probably suffice.

[ArdWrknTrk]

I wouldn't even consider fuel mileage with a 460.
The difference between 9 & 11 just isn't worth it.

I can see swapping a Bullnose cab on a later chassis.

But if you want to keep the Bullnose interior I'd stick with the 460.
Even an IDI has a completely different cab harness (and that goes from one headlight, into the cab, all through the dash, diesel cluster, different tach, and back to the other headlight.)
And neither of those trucks you've found have compatible fuel sending units.
There is a $70 solution for the fuel senders, but mine seems to have failed in just a couple of months.
Coolant and oil pressure senders could be swapped.

As Jonathan pointed out you need the second battery tray and the nearly impossible radiator support, glow plug controller, fuse panel, (plus another radiator, battery, etc)

If you swap to a 5 speed you need the proper floor pan.
A Zf -5 takes a taller one than a T-19.
The E4OD doesn't need a removable lid, but it does need the hump moved rearward to fit the transfer case.

Honestly... if you're set on a diesel truck sell this one and find a diesel Bullnose.
There are too many pieces and some of them require complete disassembly.

[FuzzFace2]

On the bed I used straps over the rafter beams to lift it on & off the many times for fitting the metal floor to the flare sides.
But I first used the crane on the style side bed to get it off its frame.
I did not care the crane hit the bed side as the other side was caved it when it rolled and I needed to place the bed on horses so I could trim the sides off and leave the ribbed floor.

Here you can see the straps hanging


As they say you use what you got and if there's a will there's a way!
Dave ----

[Rusty_S85]

ArdWrknTrk wrote

Did your '95 chassis/driveline has a speedo cable connection?

Motorcraft DY588 VSS has a mechanical connection that is plugged but you can still attach a cable to it if you so choose.

https://transmissioncenter.net/shop/speedometer-cable-used-for-efi-conversions-or-cruise-control/

The above sells the DY588 VSS with cable already clipped in place.

This was a possible route I was thinking of going to get a digital speed signal for my truck if Dakota Digital ever releases the RTX cluster for our trucks.  I can use the cable to connect to my OE cruise control speed sensor.

My only other option would be to remove the cable at the cruise control speed sensor and thread the Dakota speed sensor to that to get the sensor for my speedometer.

I actually have one of the DY588`s at work I took off a truck we were converting.

[Ford F834]

I would respectfully disagree with Jim on the issue of swapping an IDI into a gasser bullnose. The IDI wiring is extremely simple, and would not be difficult to adapt a gas harness to make everything work. There just isn’t all that much diesel specific stuff inside the cab. I know it is parroted everywhere that “the IDI only needs one wire to run” (and it’s true) but even wanting full OEM function it’s just not that much to make happen. I have pulled a couple of bullnose IDI harnesses and they are dead simple like the early DS2 trucks. The core support is a bugger, but if need be the drop down can be grafted on from a Bricknose or Aeronose truck since you are contemplating a donor. If you can’t fabricate you could hire someone to weld it. Just my .02 but changing gas to diesel is the minor modification compared to the 4x4 conversion. That would be more reason to sell and re-buy than wanting to drop a diesel in it.

The main thing about doing a a 4x4 transformation on your existing chassis with a reverse shackle kit and a mono-beam axle is it offers vastly improved ride, strength, and handling compared to a leaf spring F250 twin traction beam axle. That design is not the best. So you are getting an entirely different result. RSK makers now offer kits that fit directly on the 1980-1991 frame horns, so fabrication is minimal. Gary has done this to Big Blue, he probably has a better handle on whether it is more or less work than a body swap.

A ZF5 in a bullnose requires the later “tall” tunnel cover as already mentioned. You will have to accept a slightly tented carpet over the transmission hump, or else replace it with a carpet for a 1988-1996 Supercab. If you want a bullnose-period-correct transfer case shifter you will need to cut a hole for it in the tunnel cover since the later trucks moved it to the floor pan on the side of the hump.

For mpg comparison, I drove a 1986 F250 4x4 6.9L with a ZF5 and 3.55 gears from AZ to CA. It was loaded with about 2,000 lbs in the bed. On slower sections where I was driving 55-65 mph I calculated just over 21mpg. On the interstate at 70-75mph I was getting right about 18mpg. My friend bought it in Washington state and drove it to AZ. It had a C6 in it when he bought it and we did the ZF swap. He was seeing 14-16mpg with 3.55’s and the C6.

[ArdWrknTrk]

Well you've done it and I haven't, Jonathan!

Where did you get your Bullnose diesel cluster?
If wanting to do a monobeam 4x4 into an '85 2wd -plus- the diesel, would you still be willing to start with a 2wd 460?
If cab swapping a later truck that needed senders to work with the Bullnose dash???

I'm not saying a 6.9 or 7.3 won't get better mileage!
I'm saying a 4wd 460 will at best pick up a couple of mpg as a manual over the C6.
And I expect Gary is seeing about the limit with a fresh engine, good gears and a Zf-5.

[Gary Lewis]

Yes, I've done the D60/SuperDuty springs/RSK swap but haven't done a body swap, so I can't really compare.  And I was the very first buyer of Sky Offroad's kit, so there was a bit of "oops" involved.  But they got it right and it should be fairly straightforward for others - unless your frame is bent like mine was, which required even more work.

But the work was worth it.  I do NOT like the ride of a 4WD 250HD.  To me the combo of TTB's and leaf springs is poor.  My truck had 1" of travel before hitting the bump stops, so the springs had to be STIFF.  But with the new combo I have over 4" of travel when between the axle and bump stop, and the ride is much, much better.

[Gary Lewis]

Sorry, Jim.  Ships/night.

Yes, I'm seeing the limit of a fresh carb'd 460/ZF5/3.55 gears in a heavy truck with 33" tires.  I think I can get 12 MPG at a steady 65 MPH.  But I know that it doesn't take much to drop it to 11.5 MPG.  Wind, hills, faster driving, speed control, etc will do it.

[Ford F834]

The only unique thing(s) about a bullnose diesel cluster is the tach (if 85/86 and so equipped) and the “Diesel fuel Only” marking on the gauge face plate. That’s it. I’ve pulled a few at the junkyard. The tach can be a little tricky to find (hit or miss on eBay) but not terribly rare.

Wanting an IDI 4x4 and starting with a 460 2wd is two heavy strikes against it, but I guess it’s worthiness is subjective depending on how nice the truck is, and the availability of what you want to have... plus skill level and how much time you have to do it. One reason I might lean that way for a bullnose is that the 83/84 engines with the press-in oilers are not worth putting money into (my opinion) and there was no stock overdrive. The small segment of bolt in oiler Bullnise 6.9’s is slim, and I for one would really want overdrive. It’s likely you will end up neck deep in a project either way. One might get lucky and find just what you want with a good running IDI and the OD transmission already done, but it won’t be inexpensive. Demand on these is getting quite high.

Also, I assume you must live somewhere without emissions testing and having a diesel VIN for registration is irrelevant?

[Jbird2200]

Ford F834 wrote

The only unique thing(s) about a bullnose diesel cluster is the tach (if 85/86 and so equipped) and the “Diesel fuel Only” marking on the gauge face plate. That’s it. I’ve pulled a few at the junkyard. The tach can be a little tricky to find (hit or miss on eBay) but not terribly rare.

Wanting an IDI 4x4 and starting with a 460 2wd is two heavy strikes against it, but I guess it’s worthiness is subjective depending on how nice the truck is, and the availability of what you want to have... plus skill level and how much time you have to do it. One reason I might lean that way for a bullnose is that the 83/84 engines with the press-in oilers are not worth putting money into (my opinion) and there was no stock overdrive. The small segment of bolt in oiler Bullnise 6.9’s is slim, and I for one would really want overdrive. It’s likely you will end up neck deep in a project either way. One might get lucky and find just what you want with a good running IDI and the OD transmission already done, but it won’t be inexpensive. Demand on these is getting quite high.

Also, I assume you must live somewhere without emissions testing and having a diesel VIN for registration is irrelevant?

Good to hear that the dash/gauge issues are at least resolvable.  

Yes, definitely two strikes, both of which are caused by my own personal preference. In all honesty, I did quite a bit of reading prior to purchasing the truck I have, but didn't quite take into considerations the issues of maintaining the original interior as much as possible.  I'm not against custom gauges like I mentioned before, knowing that they aren't a cheap option, but if it means retaining the original interior as much as possible, so be it. I'm simply not a fan of the newer interiors. I bought the current truck because after a year of searching, anything with even remotely close body condition/paint/interior was selling for anywhere from $7-16k, and still weren't exactly the truck I wanted, so I figured I'd buy this one, and make what I want.

Regarding emissions/diesel VIN...non-issue, thanks to good ole' fashion Missouri ways.

Regarding the core support, I've seen a couple examples elsewhere where a bricknose core support was ultimately used with some massaging. I'll be looking more into that.

I have not explored the option of the RSK option...I'll look more into that tonight.  I wouldn't necessarily be opposed to this being a two-part build, with the first being a drivetrain swap from a bricknose IDI ZF5 truck, then later an RSK for the 4x4 component. I would also retain the well preserved frame by going that route.

[Gary Lewis]

You need to get Shaun/salans7 on here to discuss converting a 2wd F250 to 4wd.  It isn't as easy as doing the same on an F150.  I'll tag him.

[Jbird2200]

Ford F834 wrote

The main thing about doing a a 4x4 transformation on your existing chassis with a reverse shackle kit and a mono-beam axle is it offers vastly improved ride, strength, and handling compared to a leaf spring F250 twin traction beam axle. That design is not the best. So you are getting an entirely different result. RSK makers now offer kits that fit directly on the 1980-1991 frame horns, so fabrication is minimal. Gary has done this to Big Blue, he probably has a better handle on whether it is more or less work than a body swap.

If I'm looking at the right kit from Sky, it's around $600. I doubt I come by a  SD axles for less than $500. So....am I safe to assume a 4x4 conversion is going to be roughly $2k in parts? Honestly, that seems reasonable, and would provide more benefit over just the 4x4 (ride, etc. as you mention).  However, if I'm ok with the ride and design of a bricknose chassis 4x4, wouldn't it be a much more cost effective way to approach it just to swap the body? I'd still retain the option to do a shackle kit upgrade and axle upgrade in the future in the event I really did hate the ride that much.

Please correct me if my thinking is wrong here. Thanks again!

[Gary Lewis]

I paid a salvage $1225 for a D60 axle, panhard bar & bracket, brake calipers, shocks & towers, lockouts, rotors, & SuperDuty & F350 springs as well as about the front 1/4 of a frame.  And the Sky kit I bought was their 85-91 Ford F-350 4x4 2" Front Shackle Reversal (Superduty Spring) and it was $995.  Not saying that is what you need, but that's what I bought.

So if you are "ok with the ride and design of a bricknose chassis 4x4" then you'd be far ahead, money wise, to use it and do a body swap.

[Jbird2200]

Gary Lewis wrote

You need to get Shaun/salans7 on here to discuss converting a 2wd F250 to 4wd.  It isn't as easy as doing the same on an F150.  I'll tag him.

Thanks Gary.  The more I think about it, parts alone are probably going to be well north of the $2k I was originally thinking just for a conversion. If I truly want 4x4, I think I need to buy the 4x4 donor and do the body swap.

I just missed out last week on an 85' F250 6.9 T19 4x4 Ext Cab. That would have made this easier, but still no OD.

[Jbird2200]

Gary Lewis wrote

I paid a salvage $1225 for a D60 axle, panhard bar & bracket, brake calipers, shocks & towers, lockouts, rotors, & SuperDuty & F350 springs as well as about the front 1/4 of a frame.  And the Sky kit I bought was their 85-91 Ford F-350 4x4 2" Front Shackle Reversal (Superduty Spring) and it was $995.  Not saying that is what you need, but that's what I bought.

So if you are "ok with the ride and design of a bricknose chassis 4x4" then you'd be far ahead, money wise, to use it and do a body swap.

Thanks for that. I don't doubt for one second that the RKS setup and SD axle conversion is a superior option, but for my purposes, and what this truck will be used for, I don't know that it is a reasonable option to me at this moment.  And again, if I'm wrong there, the worst case scenario would be I have a "phase II" of my project and do a RKS on a bricknose. The difference in cost would be at the cost of the donor I'm searching for now, and I don't think its a matter of cost as much as it is just finding the right truck/configuration.

[Gary Lewis]

I would be looking for an '86 or later F350 4wd.  That will come with the D60 where an F250 will get you the TTBs.  But note that it needs to be an '86 or later as the '85 F350s had TTBs.

And I think you want single rear wheel (SRW) not dual rear wheel (DRW).

[ArdWrknTrk]

I certainly wasn't meaning to say it can't be done, or you haven't an idea what you're asking.
Decide exactly what you want, what you need, and what the purpose is.
If you have an inkling of fuel mileage, stay the heck away from a 460.

Gary is a prime example of what will happen with mission creep.
And a big reason why I suggested starting with something much closer to what you say you want.
Don't get caught out by the sunk cost fallacy.

As he said an '86 diesel 4X4 350 means you will have the right interior, ratios, suspension, radiator support, exhaust, batteries and harness, fuel system, clutch pedal, etc.

A Zf-5 into that is only a $1,200 chunk and a clutch.

I have a 250 4X4 (with 4.10's, which is NOT what you want with a heavy low revving engine)
I pushed Gary towards a SAS RSK while he had the engine out being built.
Because after 35 years of ownership I knew how bad TTB was to keep aligned, how rough the ride is, how poor the turning radius is...

Once you get into a Bricknose or later truck a lot of little things like senders and fitting a front bumper pop up.
Yeah just a few hundred, or a few hours with a torch and welder.
Sure you can add a few inches drop to the radiator support. But then you need the right fan shroud, the radiator itself, while you are at the radiator support let's take care of the front bumper, the second battery tray, the air cleaner ducting, and the front harness connecting up the charging system.
None of which are easy to find cheap.
But it all takes time and money.
After a while its death by a thousand cuts.
You're bled dry. You're still looking for parts that don't exist. And you still don't have the truck you want.

Gary's "Dad's Truck" is an homage to a man.
It is a decade in the planning, the making and it still isn't done.
While it isn't ever going to be a tow rig or weekend warrior, it is a restomod based on a paternal experience.

[Jbird2200]

Gary Lewis wrote

I would be looking for an '86 or later F350 4wd.  That will come with the D60 where an F250 will get you the TTBs.  But note that it needs to be an '86 or later as the '85 F350s had TTBs.

And I think you want single rear wheel (SRW) not dual rear wheel (DRW).

Thanks guys.

I understand a 86' F350 SRW 4x4 6.9 Extended Cab truck would be the unicorn for this project, but I've yet to see one.

Gary, if you don't mind me asking, all other things considered, and knowing that the 86' described above will be VERY difficult to find, are there any glaring differences I'm not thinking of that would limit my search to any more restrictive than 86-94.5? The bricknose option, while requiring more work, is likely going to be what is readily available. Going back to the need to keep the current interior, I'm not sure if there were any glaring differences among bricknose F-350s that would make any years better than others.

As far as the dash goes, I've emailed a couple of the previously mentioned companies that make retrofitted gauges and haven't received a response. I'll be calling this week to try to get more info.

I get what you're all saying regarding scope creep and having a project bleed me dry and appreciate the advice.