New Member New Build, looking for Direction

[Jbird2200]

PXL_20210316_050152491.jpg

Hi All,

I'm one of those individuals who has childhood memories of a bullnose Ford in my life. My grandpa had a 1985 Ford F-250 Explorer Trim 460/C6 4x4 SuperCab truck. I acquired that truck in my college years almost 15 years ago and despite my determination to get it back on the road, it was ultimately scrapped when I ran out of storage space.

For the last year or so I've been looking for a similar truck and have had much difficulty finding that configuration.  2 weeks ago I came across a 1984 F-250 SuperCab 2wd 460/C6 XLT roller with a really good body and interior

I'm now faced with the predicament on which direction to go with the build.  The previous owner took their time to apply what appears to be POR15 to the entire frame and suspension components.  So everything I have is clean and we'll preserved, but without many essential components.

 A donor truck is going to be needed regardless.  I've read several threads on bullnose Ford conversion to 87-97 frames, but most folks seem to be only swapping front clips.  I'd be looking to swap the whole cab clip, and bed.

I'm struggling with whether or not I should find either:
1. A 460/C6 4x4 bullnose donor
2. A 6.9 IDI manual 4x4 bullnose donor
3. A 94-97 Powerstroke auto or manual 4x4 donor

I think option 3 would be the best of both worlds and would still have a good tribute factor to my grandfather's truck but ultimately would be the greatest investment in time and expense.

Any thoughts from the bullnose experts is welcome as I'm at a bit of a standstill until I ultimately make my decision on which donor truck to buy.

Thanks for allowing new users to post an intro! I look forward to reading more and learning more about the builds that are shared on this forum.

Thanks,

Josh

[Gary Lewis]

Josh - Welcome!  I think you missed the email asking you to go the New Members Start Here folder, read the guidelines, and then start a thread to introduce yourself.  But you've done the latter, so could you assure me you've read the guidelines?

So, where's home?  I ask because we have a map (Bullnose Forum/Member's Map in the menu) and we'd be happy to add you if we had a city & state or zip.

It is a shame your previous truck got scrapped.  Save for it being a Supercab it was quite similar to what Big Blue was new.  (He's changed a bit.  )

Anyway, I'll let the others suggest what they think you ought to do.  But I'm sure you know that a 460 is thirsty, and if you put a C6 behind it the combination is downright glutenous.  

[Jbird2200]

Hi Gary,

Sorry about that. I did see the email, and thought I acknowledged the guidelines and all.

I'm just outside of St. Louis (63385 zip).

And yeah, the 460/C6 combo doesnt have me excited for anythig other than the ease of the work and less expense.

[Jbird2200]

Dang it, I see what happened now. Sorry about that, doing all of this from my phone and I intended to post this intial thread under the new member section.

[ArdWrknTrk]

Welcome Josh!

So are you intending to swap the OBS firewall and interior into a Bullnose cab, and plant that on a OBS chassis?

Because while it will be challenging to fit I can't see how you intend to make a Bullnose dash and controls drive an OBS powertrain.

There will still be a huge amount of harness work for things like light, wipers, etc...

But without a PSOM, PCM and the like the Powerstroke drivetrain is going to be near impossible.

Bill Vose is very good with melding harnesses together.
I'm sure he'll be along to have his say.

[Rembrant]

Jbird2200 wrote

A donor truck is going to be needed regardless.  I've read several threads on bullnose Ford conversion to 87-97 frames, but most folks seem to be only swapping front clips.  I'd be looking to swap the whole cab clip, and bed.

Hi Josh, welcome aboard.

I just swapped a 1980 F150 Bullnose body on to a 1995 F150 chassis, and it is all pretty straight forward. I needed a frame, and the 1995 donor truck was desirable to me for a few reasons...it was a swb 5spd 4x4 with quad shock front end and both front and rear factory swaybars. The only issue with the Bullnose swap on to a 1992-1997 frame/chassis is the mounting of the 1980-1986 Bullnose front bumper. I cut a set of bumper horns off a 1986 at the junkyard, and then grafted them on to the 1995 frame, and everything fit perfectly imho. That's a half ton though...I don't know what differs with the 3/4 ton frames...make sure you research that part.

Body mount holes and locations are all the same, all the way up to the end in 1997, even the core support mounts...it's just that the 1992-1997 frames are boxed in the front with crumble zones, and the 1980-1991 frames are not. The cab floors are all the same, so swapping around tunnel covers for different transmissions is no problem. Manual trans (hydraulic clutch) swap is also no problem...you just need to install some parts and poke a couple holes in the firewall, but it's all pretty much plug N play.

[ArdWrknTrk]

I was under the idea that he wanted an entire OBS 7.3 Powerstroke?

No speedo drive.
Senders and sensors read backwards.
Needs the '96 computer and cluster to drive the injection and transmission.
And if you're going there you may as well graft the firewall so the steering column and bulkhead connectors work?

But that dash doesn't fit the door panels, and the door panels don't fit the Bullnose doors.
But the doors will swap, if you don't mind the mirrors and vent window differences.

[Rembrant]

ArdWrknTrk wrote

I was under the idea that he wanted an entire OBS 7.3 Powerstroke?

Could be. I can only offer info on the frame/chassis/body swap. My electrical is all staying 1980, so I didn't have to make any changes there other than possibly getting the 4x4 light to work (my 1980 doesn't have one).

[ArdWrknTrk]

Did your '95 chassis/driveline has a speedo cable connection?

[Rembrant]

ArdWrknTrk wrote

Did your '95 chassis/driveline has a speedo cable connection?

No sir, as far as I know, cable speedo ended in 1991. The 1995 has a speed sensor on top of the rear diff. I'm swapping in an '88-'91 transfer case to get the speedo drive (BW1356?). There's a few of them around collecting dust, I just haven't picked one up yet.

[Gary Lewis]

Josh - No problem.  You are now on the map.

[Jbird2200]

For clarification, I have bought a roller 1985 SuperCab truck. My hopes for Powerstroke drivetrain was to swap the entire body (front clip, can and interior, and bed) by taking the front clip, cab, and bed off of the 85' I bought and drop it all onto a 94.5-97 frame/drivetrain.

I understand the dash setup is probably going to be a difficult solution. While expensive, and as a last resort, I know there are a handful of companies out there that will provide a custom built gauge cluster to fit the 85 dash, and while it wouldnt necessarily retain an "original" look, it would certainly be better in my opinion than trying to blend a 94-97 dash with a 85' dash.

[ArdWrknTrk]

And all I was saying is that none of the PS senders will drive the '85 dash, and, you need a speedo cable that the 96 won't have.
You could use the transfer case from '85.
It has a cable, and the stick location is correct for your '85 cab instead of on the side.

But to run the PS (and an E4OD, if you go automatic) you need the PSOM.... or about a grand in standalone controller, sensors, etc.
Baumann is now U.S. Shift.

The OBS steering column is different.
The bulkhead harness connections are different. The whole harness is different. And you don't have a diesel dash from '85. So no glow plug lights or controller. Different fuel switch. etc.....

But talk to Bill.
If anyone can walk you through it, it's him.

[Jbird2200]

ArdWrknTrk,

Thanks, yes, that is all things to consider. I anticipate the PS swap will probably be much more work than I intend to tackle, despite that it would be an awesome  build.

I think the 460/C6 combo is something I overall want to avoid.

Which lands me closer to an IDI option. Either (6.9 or 7.3) would allow the ability to retain the majority of the truck I have, despite the fact that I would need to source some components like those you've mentioned (still need glow plug light solution (should be fairly simple), fuel switch (thanks, I didn't realize that), or just a 80-86 gauge cluster and various associated dash pieces.  

Before I totally disregard the PS option though, I think I'm going to contact some vendors that provide custom gauge builds that will fit into the 85' dash (https://newvintageusallc.mybigcommerce.com/80-86-ford-truck-f-s/ might be an option). The PSOM would come from the donor truck (plan would be to buy a complete runner regardless of which truck I buy next), it would just be a matter of making it work with a gauge cluster.

I did realize, but forgot to mention that steering column would be different, and I would have to find a solution to at least get a appropriate looking steering wheel to match the 85' interior.  I'm not a huge fan of the really skinny stock wheel as it is, so that would be a welcome upgrade.

[Jbird2200]

Not sure why I hadn't considered it, but I've found a 85' 460 4x4 manual transmission option for fairly cheap.

I've not heard great things about the 460/C6 combo.....is the manual much improved?

[ArdWrknTrk]

That combo would have a Borg Warner T-19 gearbox.
It is very much a dump truck gearbox, but at least it has synchronized 1st.

Explain "improved".

Depending on the axle ratios it will be very busy (and thirsty!) at highway speeds.
When my truck finally snapped the input shaft I swapped in the Zf-5 S42 that became available in the '88 models.
The Zf has a thicker input shaft and therefore requires a different clutch disc.
It also has about .76:1 overdrive in 5th, and given my 4x4 came with 4.10 axles it moved 3,000 rpm up to 80 mph on stock 235/85 tires.

The C6 is plenty strong and obviously smoother than the clunky T-19, but it has no lockup torque converter, so it is always churning engine power intro heat, and it will always be revving higher than even the T-19's 1:1 4th gear.

The only other transmission option I know of is the E4OD already mentioned as being behind a '96ish diesel.
It is very long (messing with the front prop shaft) and would require a standalone shift controller.
Gary will tell you that you need to modify the transmission tunnel, extending it a couple of inches just to get that beast under the cab.

I hope this points out some of the different options you have.

[Ford F834]

Welcome to the group, and congratulations on your truck purchase. It is a beautiful straight truck!

I’m not a PSD hater by any stretch, but it is a ton of work to transplant one into a bullnose and keep the interior original. If you want diesel, I think you would be far better off putting some upgrades into an IDI which can easily be made to outrun an early Powerstroke. With either diesel, keep an eye out for a bullnose diesel radiator support with the big drop down. You will need that.

While the body will readily transplant onto a 80-96 donor 4x4 with the same wheelbase, don’t dismiss converting yours to 4x4 with a reverse shackle kit and straight axle. That is another way to go about it.

The C6 isn’t a bad transmission, it is just a fuel waster. The 4 speeds are slightly better because there is no torque converter slip, but they still leave you hanging in the overdrive gearing department. The E4OD needs a computer, so if you are comfortable with a manual the ZF5 is a cheaper and easier swap. The 460 or IDI 4x4’s can swap C6, T19, ZF5 directly as they are all the same length. If you choose a diesel you are really going to want that overdrive since they don’t like to rev very high and fall on their face at high rpm regardless of whether you are okay with the fuel consumption.

[85lebaront2]

I can back up Jim on some specifics. Powerstroke requires both an EEC-V computer and an IDM (Injector Driver Module). The EEC sits inside the cab down low next to the driver's side air box, the IDM goes right behind the very nice PDC (Power Distribution Center). The plus to this is if you want an E4OD, finding a wrecked truck with all the pieces isn't out of the realm of possible, in fact I know where there is a 1996 F350 with a PSD and E4OD.

Radiator and support, Diesel any version has a totally different radiator and support, much deeper for one thing, also has two battery locations, PSD has a huge air filter and inlet that actually covers the top of the left side battery (Left or Right refers to location as you sit in the truck). Frame, the later (at least 1990) HD (over 8500 GVW) has the same front shape as a Bullnose, but does not have the bumper bolt holes. The light duty frames from 1994-96 have the crumple zone, they also have driver side airbags.

Electrical, Bullnose trucks have a continuous front harness (14401 group) that is engine (gas or Diesel) specific along with some very strange design work (I want to know what they were on). 1987-1991 there is a large round 75 or so bulkhead bolt together connector for everything outside the cab, 1992-1996/7 there are two rectangular connectors, a large 76 pin for everything underhood and the transmission/transfer case, a smaller 24 pin one for the rear chassis harness.

IDI turbo Diesels used a TCM (Transmission Controller Module) for the E4OD as those engines still have a mechanical injection system. Relative RPM differences, Darth has a 3.55 gear, with a C6, I was typically turning 2700 +/- RPM depending on load, terrain and wind at 55-60 mph, with the E4OD, now around 15-1600 same conditions but in 4th lockup, to show the amount a torque converter slips, I had a right good load on a heavy trailer coming through the Chesapeake Bay Bridge Tunnel, upgrade, downshifted to 3rd, rpm went to 2700, lockup clutch re-engaged, rpm dropped to 2200, so torque converter was taking 500 rpm and turning it into heat.

I have lots of pictures of Darth's evolution (not as many as Gary though) if you want more information. He has a 1996 interior in the 1986 cab. One more item, the E4OD issue may only affect standard cabs, I had plenty of room under Darth's cab, however, I believe some of it may be due to being an F350 Crew Cab as it seems all crew cabs got the "tall tunnel" front floor pan.

[ArdWrknTrk]

Thank you Bill, for entering the fray.
I know you have experience with the OBS dash in a Bullnose.
And Dave has grafted a firewall into his.

My thoughts are, having the firewall eliminates any issue with the column, pass throughs, heater box, dash mounting tabs etc...
Plus the fuse panel and cluster are right (for the PowerStroke/E40D combo)
If trying to keep the interior as 'grandpa's truck' one would have a lot of difficulty.

I don't have the personal experience with the floor.
It was Gary who had to cut out the floor of 'Dad's Truck' after body and paint, when he shifted gears to the E4OD.     (Pun intended)

[Gary Lewis]

Yes, an E4OD is too long to fit under a regular cab 4WD as the transfer case hits the floor.  As you've said, I had to cut the floor and graft on a piece out of another truck.