MAJOR ANNOUNCEMENT ABOUT MIGRATION - PLEASE READ

[Gary Lewis]

I think I've gotten to the bottom of the costs, which you can see on the spreadsheet at Test Forum/Platform Comparison in the menu.  Click on the Costs tab at the bottom.

Going with InVision we are looking at $1800 one time and $660 annually if the usage is about what it is running on their server now.  But that may go up.  And I've documented $232.96 in annual costs with Weebly and GoDaddy, although that could be cut down if we don't need all of the URL's we've reserved.  (We need to figure out how to use those URL's better as we go forward or release some of them.)

So the annual costs will run somewhere around $900, or $75/mo.  From what y'all have said so far I think we are going to be fine with that.  And I think we can get there on the $1800.  So we just need to sort out the details.

As for the non-profit bit, my friend send me this email:

I'm attaching a copy of IRS Publication 557.  Page 50 describes the process for applying for tax exempt status as a 501(c)(7) organization - a social or hobby club.  You apply using Form 1024 EZ and it appears it can be done online.  This would give you a Tax ID number to open a bank account.  You would be required to file Form 990 annually which is a very simple form and can also be done online.

Having read Pg 50 I think we best fit as a hobby club and am going to start the process.  

[Gary Lewis]

I don't expect y'all to read all of this, but I'm trying to get my head around it and it helps to type it out.

This is quite confusing as there are many, many documents about how to do it. But Donorbox has this "Ultimate Guide to Start a 501c7 Social Club Organization" that seems to cut through the fog and says we need to do these steps: (Boy, how I wish we were already on InVision as formatting this post would be so much easier there!)

1. Confirm that your organization meets the 501c7 requirements: I believe we do but am still working through some questions just to make sure.
2. Establish a membership base: We have one, and I think it'll work but am checking to make sure.
3. Organize a board of directors: We don't have that but can do.
4. Draft your bylaws and articles of incorporation: Don't have this either but have our guidelines, which are a start. I have our church bylaws to use as an example as they've passed muster.
5. Secure your EIN and bank account: The article says "It can be helpful to keep your social club’s finances separate from your personal ones. For that purpose, you can create a Non-Profit Organization Employer ID Number (EIN) with the IRS in order to set up a business bank account. Even though it’s referred to as an Employer ID Number, you don’t need to employ anyone to get an EIN. This is simply a tool that allows you to set up a business bank account. You’ll need to provide some personal information, including a social security number, for the organization’s main contact."
6. Apply for tax-exempt status by filing IRS Form 1024: I'll do that when we get the other bits sorted.
7. Fill out Form 990 to ensure ongoing compliance: This is an annual thing, which I'll have to do.
8. Set up a way to collect membership dues: Don't worry, we aren't going to have dues. Just contributions, which are not tax exempt.

[ArdWrknTrk]

Wow Gary!
You're just figuring this out now

I'd have thought someone of your generation and background would well know how tenuous our lives really are.  

[Gary Lewis]

ArdWrknTrk wrote

Wow Gary!
You're just figuring this out now

I'd have thought someone of your generation and background would well know how tenuous our lives really are.  

What can I say?  I'm slow.  But I'm getting there.  

However, I think it is safe to say that what we have here is well worth preserving - both the posts as well as the camaraderie.  So we need to figure out how to preserve it, and setting up the non-profit with bylaws, board of directors, etc is a good start.

[85lebaront2]

Gary, I don't know if he can help or not, but my older son (stepson actually) is an IRS auditor? in Austin Texas. He might be able to at least point you in the right direction. If you want I will send you his information off here and let him know, He just had a stent put in one of his heart arteries this morning paid for by the VA (Army veteran, 57 years old). He usually calls me every evening on his 1 hour drive to work.

[Gary Lewis]

Bill - It sure won't hurt.  You know my email address and phone number, so share whatever you want.

But if he's just had a stent put in he's going to be out of it for a while, so I don't expect him to reach out any time soon.

Thanks!

[Gary Lewis]

Churning along here, this is what is said by the West Virginia Institute Of Technology:

Constitution - The fundamental principles of an organization which determine the responsibilities and rights of its officers and members.

Bylaws – The detailed procedures and working guidelines of the organization which govern the day-to-day operations of the organization and accompany the Constitution.

So I'm reviewing the church constitution & bylaws to see what they entail and will then be creating a draft of ours, folding in the guidelines we already have.  I'm thinking I'll post a draft on here so y'all can help me work through it.

[BigBrother-84]

Gary Lewis wrote

(Boy, how I wish we were already on InVision as formatting this post would be so much easier there!)

[ArdWrknTrk]

I guess I learned at six, while the rest of my peers were in 1st grade, I was growing up feral.  😄

[85lebaront2]

Board of directors can probably be your administrators as that is essentially what we are.

[Gary Lewis]

85lebaront2 wrote

Board of directors can probably be your administrators as that is essentially what we are.

That was my first thought, Bill.  But now I'm rethinking that because on Invision we have two roles above Member, Administrator and Moderator - and I don't yet know the difference.  So we need to get our head around those two roles as well as what we want the board of directors to do.

On Invision I think I have the joining process set up so that people don't need approval by anyone.  They have to agree to the guidelines, and when they do they become a New Member.  That means they can only post in the New Members Start Here folder until they have one post, at which point they become a Member and can post anywhere but the Admin area.

In other words, I'm not sure what we, the current Admins, are going to do.  Will all of us become Admins or Moderators in Invision?  Will some of us become one and others the other?  And what does the BoD do?

Let me noodle on this a bit tomorrow and see if I can make sense of it.  

[salans7]

What can InVision do for us in regard to spam accounts? The Internet Brands forum that I moderate is having issues with spam accounts created at least 5 times a week, and I would think IB would have better tools to combat it than it seems they do. But it could also be their lack of desire to correct the issue on such a low-traffic forum.

Also, as a moderator, I'm pretty limited to punitive actions (think bans), post editing, and thread cleanup (deletion, moving, etc). There's some forum policing involved, but I don't really seem to have more access than that (haven't really dug that far into it to be sure though).

[ArdWrknTrk]

A mod is like a cop.

An administrator does exactly that...
They work behind the scenes to admit new members. Put them in the map. Pin topics. Create polls. Fix issues on the back end or enable new functions.

There really shouldn't be any overlap.

[Gary Lewis]

Shaun - Good question.  We really don't know, yet, what all the issues or capabilities are.  But their article called New Spam Prevention Features outlines new ways they've come up with to prevent spam.

We've used their recommended way of registering, which requires the person registering to use an email address that is "approved" in the mycompany.com email address registration database.  Apparently this database is intended to exclude people setting up email systems just to get past this step of registration.

Jim - Invision's guide on Creating Administrators and Moderators says:

Before we go into the setup of these, its important to understand the difference between Administrators and Moderators. At its most basic, Administrators are those members who can access areas of your AdminCP. Nobody at all can access your AdminCP without being set up as an administrator in some way. Conversely, moderators are those members who can access staff functions on the public facing side of your site. So moderation actions such as deleting posts, moving a gallery image, or editing someone's comment, may fall under these actions.

In other words, an Admin can change the way the forum looks, works, and feels.  S/he can add applications or widgets and turn on or off functions.  Or even turn the whole site off.  But a Moderator can't do that.

And that's one of the problems with Nabble - there's no difference between an Admin and a Moderator, and there should be.  To be able to approve someone to be a Member you also have the ability to delete the whole forum.

As for admitting new Invision members, right now that is set to automagic: someone registers, accepts the guidelines, confirms their email address, and becomes a New Member - and can only post in NMSH.  One post and they are automatically promoted to Member and can post elsewhere, but if we have spam problems we could make that manual.

But the map is a totally separate thing.  It is in Google and only two of us are editors - John/Machspeed and I.

[BigBrother-84]

Gary Lewis wrote

[…] and becomes a New Member - and can only post in NMSH.  One post and they are automatically promoted to Member and can post elsewhere, but if we have spam problems we could make that manual.

If you call at my office, there’s a lady answering.  I once had an automated answering system, but I hate it.
IMHO, there’s nothing like being welcomed by a real human.

This Forum has friendly and family aspects that make it different.  If every step is automatic, I think we’ll lose something really important.

If we’re losing the introduction step such as «Hi Jeff, welcome among us, nice truck, where are you, tell us more about your project, what’s your problem, what can we do to help you», we’re losing an essential hand-shake.

Being member of a communication community is a step below being among people.

[Gary Lewis]

Good point, Jeff.  However, as it is the Nabble newbies get a canned response from us.  And while we now have to kick that off manually, which can cause significant delays while we are doing other things, what about sending them an automatic canned response?

We won't want to use the same wording 'cause right now it says our joining process is broken and it won't be then, but it could say pretty much the same things otherwise.

But what do y'all think about forcing them to post in the NMSH folder?  The reason heretofore has been that we have the guidelines there and want them to read them. However now we'll have the guidelines pop up during the registration process and they'll have to tick a box saying they will adhere to them or they cannot register.

To me the introduction step is part of becoming part of the community that you mentioned, Jeff.  We aren't really here to answer one question and then have them be gone. Not that we won't do that, but that's not what our purpose statement in the guidelines says: (I made "community" bold to make the point.)

We are a community of people who enjoy the 1980 - 86 Ford trucks and want to help each other use, maintain, repair, and upgrade them. And towards that end we are:
- Family oriented: We want our children and grandchildren to be comfortable here so no provocative pictures nor obscenities are allowed.
- Constructive: No talking down nor "yelling" at others.
- Respectful: No politics nor religion are to be discussed as they are subjects that could easily divide us.

So maybe a safety in the spam era would be that it takes a moderator to promote a New Member to Member?  Don't do it automatically with one post, but make it manual via a moderator?

Thoughts?  

[derek]

Gary Lewis wrote

I don't expect y'all to read all of this, but I'm trying to get my head around it and it helps to type it out.
<p></p>
This is quite confusing as there are many, many documents about how to do it.  But Donorbox has this "Ultimate Guide to Start a 501c7 Social Club Organization" that seems to cut through the fog and says we need to do these steps: <small>(Boy, how I wish we were already on InVision as formatting this post would be so much easier there!)</small>
<p></p>
<ol><li>Confirm that your organization meets the 501c7 requirements: I believe we do but am still working through some questions just to make sure.</li>
<p></p>
<li>Establish a membership base: We have one, and I think it'll work but am checking to make sure.</li>
<p></p>
<li>Organize a board of directors: We don't have that but can do.</li>
<p></p>
<li>Draft your bylaws and articles of incorporation: Don't have this either but have our guidelines, which are a start.  I have our church bylaws to use as an example as they've passed muster.</li>
<p></p>
<li>Secure your EIN and bank account: The article says "It can be helpful to keep your social club’s finances separate from your personal ones. For that purpose, you can create a Non-Profit Organization Employer ID Number (EIN) with the IRS in order to set up a business bank account.

Even though it’s referred to as an Employer ID Number, you don’t need to employ anyone to get an EIN. This is simply a tool that allows you to set up a business bank account. You’ll need to provide some personal information, including a social security number, for the organization’s main contact."</li>
<p></p>
<li>Apply for tax-exempt status by filing IRS Form 1024: I'll do that when we get the other bits sorted.</li>
<p></p>
<li>Fill out Form 990 to ensure ongoing compliance: This is an annual thing, which I'll have to do.</li>
<p></p>
<li>Set up a way to collect membership dues: Don't worry, we aren't going to have dues.  Just contributions, which are not tax exempt. </li></ol>
<p></p>

I don’t mean to add to your already full plate here, but would it possible to be a car club?  

Reason I ask is that in order to use an antique plate in Louisiana, one option is to be a member of a car club.

Additionally, I’m not sure, as I’ve never used it, but does anyone know if  Patreon would be a fit for ongoing monthly subscriptions?

[Gary Lewis]

The plot thickens, yet again.  The IRS page entitled Before Applying for Tax-Exempt Status says:

State law governs nonprofit status, which is determined by an organization’s articles of incorporation or trust documents. Federal law governs tax-exempt status. The Internal Revenue Code specifically refers to exemption from federal income tax.

So it looks to me like we have to become a non-profit in a state, and since at least one officer needs to be resident in the state in which you file I guess we'll file in the only state that is OK.  Besides, the fee is only $25 here.

[Gary Lewis]

Derek - I don't see "car club" as an option in any of the documents I've read.  Hobby organization is what most say.

Can you find out what the exact wording is from Louisiana?

As for Patreon, we can research how to pay later, but I don't think we will have any dues.  Hopefully it will all be via contribution.

[BigBrother-84]

Gary Lewis wrote

And while we now have to kick that off manually, which can cause significant delays while we are doing other things, what about sending them an automatic canned response?

We don’t want delay (in general, 2024 people are a bit hurry), so canned answering is OK.
But I think to limit posting in the NMSH is a good process.
This can be the spam “custom control”, which requires a human allowance (and good welcome words) before going further in forum postings.
Is it possible with InVision?