Help On 3G Page

[Gary Lewis]

Rusty - According to the schematic, the relay is pulled in by the stator wire, but it then feeds battery voltage to the choke.  Note that this is for the 351HO, not any other engine.

I guess I should have said that as I started the discussion.  Anyway, here's the page from the '85 EVTM:

[Rusty_S85]

Gary Lewis wrote

Rusty - According to the schematic, the relay is pulled in by the stator wire, but it then feeds battery voltage to the choke.  Note that this is for the 351HO, not any other engine.

I guess I should have said that as I started the discussion.  Anyway, here's the page from the '85 EVTM:

Correct, but my concern would be are we sure that ford didnt use a resistor wire to drop the voltage down.  I wouldnt know as my truck the choke is ran off the stator itself without a relay.  Just something I was thinking and its good to have verified to prevent issues cause if they are using a resistor wire to drop the voltage down it would make your volt gauge read low.

[85lebaront2]

On the 460s, the stator wire goes directly to the choke cap, no relay so apparently the Holley choke cap is designed for 7.5V.

[Gary Lewis]

Yep.  It is strange that while both the 351HO and the 460 got a 4180C that one got a 12v choke heater and one got a 7v heater.  But that must be the case 'cause the HO is the only one with a choke relay.  

[ArdWrknTrk]

I have a moment to weigh in on this.

I was definitely going the way Rusty was thinking.
Not touching the cab side of C610, but it seems Gary wants to keep the whole plug and work from there.

Rusty & Bill, the choke on the 351 HO 4180 is 12V just like most Holley's but it should have a single bullet, like all Motorcraft chokes.

The 4180 on my truck, and my '85 Mustang both had chokes that ran on unrectified stator power.
(Approximately 7.5V on a DC scale???)

I would like to see the part number for the 460 & 351 HO choke coils, but I don't have the decoder ring, even if I did have the tag number from the two different 4180's

[Gary Lewis]

Jim - Help me understand what you, and Rusty, are thinking on the connector?  Keep the cab half of it but tap in ahead of it?

I'll go see what I can find on the choke coil...

[85lebaront2]

I can get it for you the next time I am out in the garage (currently about 25° here) as I have a new one in my tool box still in the package. BTW, it is rectified, look at the internal wiring on the 65 amp 2G as that is what was on Darth when I bought him.

AllData gives E5PZ-9848-B for the 1986 351 HO and the same for the 1986 460.

It may be that Ford wanted the 351 choke to come off faster either for emission reasons or that the engine will warm up faster than a 460.

Gary, something for you, intake manifolds for carbureted and TBI engines need a slight amount of roughness on the inside of the runners to provide some turbulence in the air flow to keep the fuel droplets from condensing on the walls, also the reason for manifold heat to help vaporize the fuel better. On a port injection system, smooth flow of the air into the cylinders is the desired condition as the fuel is sprayed into the air stream under pressure and aimed at the back of the intake valve (on bank fired this means a portion of the delivery is onto closed valves which, according to theory doesn't matter). In the real world it apparently does as I have seen 2 and read about a 3rd 460 with a problem in #5 cylinder that are caused by a lean condition. It may be the grouping of the injectors 1,4,5,8 and 2,3,6,7 or the fact that the 460s use a 180° manifold instead of the long ram design that the 300, 302 and 351 use, or it may be a combination of the 2. I had resequenced the bank fired wiring on Darth before I went to the MAF/SEFI system so that they were grouped as a TBI would feed, 1,4,6,7 and 2,3,5,8 it ran pretty smoothly and the plugs looked pretty even on mixture.

[ArdWrknTrk]

I have enough old harness parts that if I were to do it again I would pin a length of yellow 10Ga. primary wire for the cab power and a length of green 16 for the cab-on power going to the 3G regulator plug.

But, that's just me, and amputating at the knee instead of below the knee is just the way I'd want to operate.

John should do like Scott said and follow the dark blue fuselink to the relay.
He has the old harness, he can tell where it reaches.

[Gary Lewis]

Bill - I can only get part numbers for the choke, not a description of it nor info on its voltage.  So if you can get the part numbers and info on the voltage maybe we can build a list.

Jim - Ok, I think I understand.  What we might do is to give people an option, either cut the connector off and tap in ahead of it, or leave it and cut off behind it.  There are advantages both ways.  With the connector you could revert to the original arrangement if you should want to, and you'll have more wire which might make it easier to splice in.  Without the connector you'll have a cleaner arrangement with less chance of the connector failing.

[85lebaront2]

Gary, I have the PNs and pictures. No voltage is given, but, the 460s used 7.5V direct from the alternator, but the 351 HO used 12V via a relay closed by the 7.5V lead from the stator. The only thing I can think of would be the warm up speed for the choke needing to be faster on the 351 (865 lbs of cast iron and 22 or more qts of coolant take a while).



Viewed from the inside, clockwise is cold direction counterclockwise is warm direction.

[Gary Lewis]

Bill - I found that choke in the MPC and it is right for carbs with Tag code E6HE-GA,GB E7PE-BA, E6HE-AC.  And those are the codes for the 460 version of the 4180C.  There's another choke for the 460, and it is E6PZ 9848-B CM-4513, which is right for Tag codes E6HE-AA,BA.

For the 351HO, which should be the 12v ones, the following chokes are correct:

B8A 9848-E  CM-329

E3PZ 9848-E  CM-4068

E4PZ 9848-F  CM-4315

E4PZ 9848-G  CM-4324

[ArdWrknTrk]

Thank you for digging that information up, Gary!  

(And I really appreciate you including the Motorcraft numbers.
It makes these choke heaters much easier to find.  

[Gary Lewis]

I'm wanting to rethink the plan for the 3G page.  I'd set out my thoughts earlier, but I'm not sure I agree with them now.  So here's my current thinking, but I want y'all to push back if you disagree.

It seems to me that these are the variations that are possible, but I don't know if all of them are reasonable:

1G:

With shunt and with ammeter.  Ammeter will only show discharge.  Is this even something someone would do?

With shunt but with ammeter disconnected.  Would someone do this?  Why not leave it connected?

With shunt and with voltmeter.  This seems a reasonable approach.

Without shunt but with voltmeter.  This also seems reasonable.

With warning lights.  Easy peasy.

2G:

With shunt and with ammeter.  Ammeter will only show discharge.  Is this even something someone would do?

With shunt but with ammeter disconnected.  Would someone do this?  Why not leave it connected?

With shunt and with voltmeter.  This seems a reasonable approach.

Without shunt but with voltmeter.  This also seems reasonable.

Again, I want to think through this and need your help.  I'd like to have everything covered, but I don't want to make it too complex.

Thoughts, please?

[Tyler]

I assume there are a limited number of people who completely understand the purpose/concept of each of these options.

I am not one of you, LoL.  Even after doing some electrical engineering research.

It does seem like your "reasonable" options are true as considered from the bench over here.

[Gary Lewis]

Jim - I missed your post as I was posting.  Welcome.

Ty - I expect to provide some explanation as to why we provide details on only a subset of the options.  But I suspect there will be a lot of people that just want to make it happen and don't care about the details.  So we need to keep it fairly simple.

And thanks for the input.  It helps a lot as I understand all of this and need to hear from those that don't.

[85lebaront2]

You are digging way back for that B8A number, that would be a 1958 PN. I didn't realize Ford was using electric chokes that far back. I wonder if it was for one of the MEL applications? Those engines are interesting to say the least. I may have to look in the old parts books I have, one of which if it didn't get lost was specifically MEL parts.

[ArdWrknTrk]

You're covering a lot more than any sane person would consider.

Why would anyone have a shunt if they had no ammeter?
Because they like resistance for no reason???

[Machspeed]

Gary Lewis wrote

I'm wanting to rethink the plan for the 3G page.  I'd set out my thoughts earlier, but I'm not sure I agree with them now.  So here's my current thinking, but I want y'all to push back if you disagree.

It seems to me that these are the variations that are possible, but I don't know if all of them are reasonable:

1G:

With shunt and with ammeter.  Ammeter will only show discharge.  Is this even something someone would do?

With shunt but with ammeter disconnected.  Would someone do this?  Why not leave it connected?

With shunt and with voltmeter.  This seems a reasonable approach.

Without shunt but with voltmeter.  This also seems reasonable.

With warning lights.  Easy peasy.

2G:

With shunt and with ammeter.  Ammeter will only show discharge.  Is this even something someone would do?

With shunt but with ammeter disconnected.  Would someone do this?  Why not leave it connected?

With shunt and with voltmeter.  This seems a reasonable approach.

Without shunt but with voltmeter.  This also seems reasonable.

Again, I want to think through this and need your help.  I'd like to have everything covered, but I don't want to make it too complex.

Thoughts, please?

Gary, Jim is right....don't waste your time with that.

1G to 3G maybe give the last three options
2G to 3G give the last two options

Forget the rest!

[kramttocs]

Machspeed wrote

1G to 3G maybe give the last three options
2G to 3G give the last two options

Forget the rest!

[Gary Lewis]

Ok guys, let's try this.  I appreciate the input.

1G:

With shunt and with voltmeter.  This means C610 stays.

Without shunt but with voltmeter.  This means C610 can go away.

With warning lights.  Easy peasy.

2G:

With shunt and with voltmeter.  This means C610 stays.

Without shunt but with voltmeter.  This means C610 can go away.

Agreed?  My cunning plan is to get the ideas nailed down and then work it during the Super Bowl.  Doubt I'll get it done, but I hope I'll have something we can tweak a week from now.