Big Blue's Transformation

[ArdWrknTrk]

Gary Lewis wrote

First, this happened today: as you can see below, there's a bit of a problem on the passenger's side header.  The gap to the engine spacer is maybe 1/8", but the gap to the frame is maybe .010" - if that.

Thoughts?

I think L&L have not been paying attention, for decades.

It's just absurd that they can't get their Fab right.

Having to pull the transmission to install headers is a downright pita, but building them so you can't fit a business card between them and the frame is not anyone's good practice.
Maybe they'd fit better in a Windsor truck with L&L's swap mounts, IDK.

Meanwhile it's obvious that they don't listen to feedback, and have never actually installed them themselves.
.

[Gary Lewis]

Bill is right that the gap between the spacer and the header won't change.  But the fact that there's a problem there and a problem on the other side of the header to the frame means you can't just tweak the headers as you are robbing Peter to pay Paul.

And, Bill is right that I should have fit the headers to the engine before having them Jet-Hot coated.  That way I could have dented them.  But I didn't.

As for L&L not listening, maybe.  But don't forget how many changes there have been to Big Blue.  Somewhere along the way the front of the frame was tweaked, which I found installing the D60.  Was it only the front?  And the crossmember was hacked.  And the perches were taken off and poorly reinstalled.  So it is possible that Big Blue isn't quite 'right" and the headers would fit a truck that is "right".  I don't know, but I do know that it is TIGHT in there.  With 1/8" clearance on one side and essentially none on the other, I'm not sure anything would work save for going with smaller tubing.

Then there's the rotation of the engine.  I thought about that, but the engine is sitting in rubber mounts and will surely snap back when the clutch is released.  I'm sure of that 'cause the old L&L's were close to the perch on the driver's side, but you could see where they had been hitting in spite of the rotation away when accelerating forward.

So the lack of clearance to the frame has to be remedied.  But I'm convinced that rotating the engine slightly with a spacer will do that.  We shall see this afternoon.

[ArdWrknTrk]

If it wasn't so far back together, I'd be very tempted to heat'n beat the frame rails.

[Gary Lewis]

Yeah, I'm a bit past that point.  Let's hope the spacer works.  We should know this afternoon.

On another subject, I had a hard time finding the boot for the ZF5's clutch fork, but did an will document what I found here.

First, the part number from the MPC is E7TZ 7513-A.  And searching for that found one in captivity via RearCounter at a Ford dealership in the KC area.  They want $60 + $8 for shipping, and it turns out it is a reproduction boot.  And other places show none in stock or "discontinued part".

But, I found several at AMP Distributing for $24.95 with free shipping.  It is their part #ZFCFBT and they say:

Fits 1987-1998 Ford ZF 5 speed with external slave cylinder only.
 
Boot is manufactured using high temperature and oil resistant material for superior service life.

Not sure when it will be here, but it was ordered yesterday (Saturday) and while they've confirmed the order I've not gotten notification of it shipping.  However, it won't hold me up if it takes a week as I can sort out the headers, reinstall the tranny, install the t-case, install the rear drive shaft, etc.

And, speaking of the headers, I'd forgotten that I have a stripped and repaired thread on one head, and the repair uses a larger bolt.  So I'll have to drill the header's flange a bit to get that bolt in.  And, at present I don't have the kind of bolt I want to use, so will have to wait until I get the right one to install that one.

Also, there's one bolt that can't quite go in due to the turn of the pipe, so I need to clearance that hole slightly.  But I hope to have those things awa the spacer done today.  After church, which is via Zoom and/or Facebook Live.

[ArdWrknTrk]

Gary, why don't you put a thread insert and have all the bolts the same?

[Gary Lewis]

Jim - That's a good idea.  I'll have to figure out what I have, but I'm thinking the standard ones are 3/8".  So the oversized one is 7/16.  Let me see....

[ArdWrknTrk]

Yep, the stock size is 3/8-16
While you may have lost the opportunity for a Helicoil, you can find something like a Time-sert or Keen-sert that fits in a larger NC hole and gives you the threads you need.

[Gary Lewis]

Jim - Are you saying there's an insert that will convert 7/16-14 to 3/8-16"?  I've not looked as I've been busy....

I pulled the driver's side header and put a G8 bolt in an exhaust port hole and lifted the engine just enough to slip two 5/16" pieces of scrap between the driver's side mount and the perch, which got me the clearance shown below.  The clearance is 5/32" (.156"), although a 11/64" (.172") bit will fit in that notch and almost clear.




I'm not too happy about that little bit of clearance, and while I have both 5/16" and 3/8" stock with which to make the spacer, I'm thinking the thing to do is to pull the header off and trim the frame a bit.  I'm thinking trimming it like this.

What'cha think?  How much should I trim?  How much clearance do I need?  Is 1/4" enough?

[ArdWrknTrk]

Gary,
A 3/8-16 Keensert takes a 1/2-13 hole.
I don't know if there's room for that.

I would certainly want more clearance than that.
If you're going to pull the *tranny, to pull the header, why not just heat it up and make a lip rather than going at it with a die grinder?
It'll be stronger, and the flange will be rolled out of the way.

Off to check on the pilot for a Timesert

[ArdWrknTrk]

According to this:  http://www.timesert.com/html/engineeringdataI.html
The major diameter of a 3/8-16 Timesert is ~7/16.
Of course, like a Helicoil, the pitch is going to be 16 not 14.

[Gary Lewis]

Yes, I'm finding that the minor diameter for 7/16-14 is less than the major diameter of 3/8-16, so that's not going to work.  I guess I'll just use a stainless SHCS for that hole.

As for the frame, you are right - if I have the header out I could put a lip on the frame.  But I only have MAPP gas.  Think it'll do it?

[ArdWrknTrk]

No, I don't think mapp gas is going to get enough heat in fast enough to soften the edge of the framerail.

[kramttocs]

Rolling it and not removing any material would be ideal but I wouldn't think twice about grinding to your red line. I only say that because I did enough thinking and fretting before I took that same jutt off the top to give me some clearance

Speaking of the heating route - is there any concern with heating the frame that hot?

[ArdWrknTrk]

I wouldn't be concerned.
There's work hardening of the stamping being annealed (locally) but as long as you don't quench it no chance of embrittlement.

It's not like these things are made of 4140, or stressed that highly.

ETA: I would definitely make more clearance than Gary shows.

[Gary Lewis]

Morning, guys.  Yes, I'm getting more clearance than the ~1/8" it has.  But I don't have enough heat to bend it, so will grind.

However, my remembrance is that Ford said don't weld to the frame.  I also remember an exchange with Steve83 where I couldn't put my fingers on exactly where the documentation says that, so perhaps I'm wrong.

But, if I'm right, they don't want you heating it that much.  If so, does that suggest that the frames where heat treated?

[ArdWrknTrk]

You don't want to weld on it because you can create a hard point subject to future cracking.
I told you this when you wanted to gusset the crossmember in dad's truck.

Heating, and allowing it to cool isn't going to 'pull' like a weld can.
I know plenty of DOT weldors that do "what you aren't supposed to" all day, every day.

[Gary Lewis]

Thanks, Jim.

As for what I did today, I had success!  

But, that wasn't all I did.  First I made a spacer, put it in, and discovered that it caused the header to hit the perch on the passenger's side.  

Then I took the header out, and cut the frame like this:



Then I took the spacer out, painted the frame, reinstalled the padding, reinstalled the header, and found that I can get a 3/8" drill bit in that space easily.  In fact, a 1/2" will almost go.  And that is w/o a spacer.
 
I still have a bit of work to do as one bolt doesn't want to go in so I need to loosen the others up and get that one going, but I think it was a good day.  

[ArdWrknTrk]

Progress is good!  👍

[Gary Lewis]

Yes it is, Jim.  And we are both making progress.  

I'm hoping that tomorrow I can get the recalcitrant bolt to go in correctly and snug up all but the rear bolt for #2, which is the one that's 7/16-14.  I don't have the SHCS in stainless, so will have to order some or go into the local hardware store.  But that really won't hold me up as I can install it later and torque all of them down then.

Then I hope to get the left header back on and snugged down.  But before I install it I need to radius the rear hole for #6 so I can get the bolt in, and check the threads on the rear bolt for #8.

After that I'll see if the tranny will go back in or if I'm going to have to grind on it to clear the header.  Gotta remember to use the PST on the threads for the top bolts as they go into the valve cover area.  Then put the transmission crossmember and mount on.  None of that is hard, but it is tedious as it isn't easy getting to some of those fasteners.

Then I'm good to install the t-case, install the steering shaft, powder coat the power steering/AC bracket as well as a bunch of other little parts, etc.  Its gonna start looking like it may eventually run!  

[ArdWrknTrk]

No wonder you're exhausted, Gary!

Slow down.
Take human bites!