Big Blue's Transformation

[Gary Lewis]

I have to make hay while the sun shines.  Soon my grandtwins will be here and there won't be much time for the shop.

I really would like to drive Big Blue this summer.  The goal has been to drive him to the show, which is the 19th of Sept, which is 5 months from yesterday.  That seems doable, but only if I keep pushing.  And while the show may not happen, that's still my goal.

The headers have been the long pole in the tent.  Until they were in I didn't dare install the t-case, driveshafts, tranny cover, shifter, etc. But with them in I can move on to those things, most of which are ready and waiting.

[ArdWrknTrk]

You have your ducks all in a row!

(Have you been duck pin bowling?, do you understand the reference?)

[Gary Lewis]

I've never even seen duck pin bowling, much less played.  But I've heard that the pins are smaller and harder to knock down.

As far as Big Blue goes, I do have a lot of those pins lined up.  But, I awoke with a thought this morn - what if there's no lock washer on the bolt that won't go in the whole way?  These lock washers are about twice as thick as a normal one, and the absence would leave the bolt sticking out quite a ways.  That might explain it.

[ArdWrknTrk]

Are you using Nord-lock's?

[Gary Lewis]

No, these are the bolts and washers that came with the headers:

[ArdWrknTrk]

1/2" flange, 1/2" engagement????

[Gary Lewis]

Well, it was a day.  Got the passenger-side header bolts snugged up and the driver-side header installed and the bolts snugged up.  But that in and of itself wasn't as easily done as said.  Many of those bolts are so close to the exhaust tube that my Craftsman 3/8" 12-point wrench, shown on the left, wouldn't go on.  So I modified a spare a little bit to get clearance, and it took all of that grinding to get the needed clearance.




Then I tried to put the tranny in.  No go.  In this pic you can see that the tranny is touching the header at the starter bump, and the pilot stud is just visible through the top hole, but not yet lined up.  




So, I did some measuring.  I know this isn't very accurate, but the engine plate pic on the right shows roughly 1 9/16" to the edge, and the transmission pic on the right shows essentially the same measurement.  So it looks to me like there will be the same clearance between the tranny and the header as there is to the engine plate - if I can get the tranny there.

Having said that, it wouldn't hurt to take a bit off the tranny with the flap wheel to make sure there's room.  So I think I'll do that tomorrow as well as loosen the bolts on that header and swing it as far away as I can, which is ~3/8".

Other ideas?  Suggestions?  Help!

[Gary Lewis]

Yes, probably 1/2" flange, but there's more than 1/2" of engagement.  Don't know how much, but there sure seems to be a lot when you are doing it 1/16 turn at a time.  

[Gary Lewis]

ArdWrknTrk wrote

1/2" flange, 1/2" engagement????

Well, having thought about it, you are right.  There can't be any more than 1/2".  If the bolt is 1 1/4" and the flange is 1/2" that leaves 3/4".  But that washer has to be 1/8" when compressed, and the gasket is probably about the same.  So ~1/2" is probably the max it could be.

[ArdWrknTrk]

THIS sort of thing is exactly why I made my comment about L&L's ,,,, poor development.

Maybe great in concept and execution, but it seems they've never actually tried to use own their product.
Or listen to any feedback

You paid REAL money for these things....
Put it in, take it out. Take out the gearbox and cut the frame, put it in, take it out.
Smash in the pipe with a hammer just to get a freaking wrench on it.
Put it in, take it out. Try and decide how much of your gearbox housing you can cut away to make it fit.

I'm really glad it's not me.
I would probably be going to jail after I drove down there and did what I would with that header.

[85lebaront2]

I might suggest you see if you can source some Torx socket head bolts the correct length, then you can probably get more turn on them.

[ArdWrknTrk]

I'm thinking the reason he needs an end wrench is that the tube curves over the fastener, and he can't get a straight shot at it.

I would definitely have snapped a wrench ground that thin.

[ArdWrknTrk]

Gary needed to open up the hole in the flange, just to get the reduced head screw into place.

How can he get a socket on/in it?

[Gary Lewis]

Jim - Trust me, I'm frustrated.  And if I didn't have a ton of money wrapped up in these things I'd be considering going with the manifolds.  But I'm soooooo close.  Like maybe 1/8" off.  

Bill - As Jim said, I don't have a straight shot at about 1/2 of the bolts.  So I don't think I can use Torx fasteners.

So, guys, why is 1/2" of engagement not enough?  The rule of thumb I remember is 1 - 1.5 times the diameter of the bolt for max strength.  They are 3/8" bolts, so 1/2" is right in the middle of that 1 - 1.5 range.  Plus these are tight fits, not sloppy.  And I can't really torque these things so I'm doubting there is any chance of it stripping out.

[Gary Lewis]

ArdWrknTrk wrote

Gary needed to open up the hole in the flange, just to get the reduced head screw into place.

How can he get a socket on/in it?

Yep, I had to radius two holes, one on each header, just to get the bolts in.  Further, several bolts had to be the whole way in or I couldn't get the wrench on them due to the turn of the tube.  So I had to pull the flange back against the head, take a few turns on that one and then move onto another one that had similar problems.

Part way through I'm thinking "How did I get in this mess?!?!?!?!?!"  And now I have to lay that header back to get the tranny in.  

[ArdWrknTrk]

Close counts in horseshoes and hand grenades....

What if Scotty had said 'oh, I've got this part. It'll be "close enough"'????

The fact that hundreds, if not thousands of people have had to go through this really frosts me.
Why do I feel indignant?  It's not my problem.

[salans7]

ArdWrknTrk wrote

THIS sort of thing is exactly why I made my comment about L&L's ,,,, poor development.

I'm really glad it's not me.
I would probably be going to jail after I drove down there and did what I would with that header.

I've been looking at their 460 swap kits as they have a lot of the parts I need to shoehorn one into my 300/302/351 crossmember, but after reading this there's no way I'm going with their headers, which means I have to purchase the parts individually, and now I'm wondering if there's somebody else who makes these parts because I remember Gary having issues getting the headers delivered in the first place.

[ArdWrknTrk]

And he had clearance issues with the carb head headers before this....

I can see that *if they come with a warning that you need to clearance the frame*

But having to cut the bellhousing and not being able to get the bolts in, and having to inch those special, reduced head bolts into place is 🐂

[85lebaront2]

And you wonder why I said "no way in hell" on headers in a truck. You would have to prove a minimum of 25% increase in power over what I have now for me to even consider it. I had two cars, both small Windsor V8s, a 260 in a 1964 Falcon and a Cobra 289 in a 1966 GT350. The Falcon had Hedman Headers as they were the only tuned headers made for the pre-1966 Falcon and Comet, the Shelby came with Shelby's tri-Y headers and when they started rusting out I bought a pair of Hookers and their Header mufflers. The Hookers were the 1 5/8 primary and 3" collector models specified for Shelby and 351W engines only, all other Windsors took 1 1/2" primaries and 2 1/2" collectors.

The Falcon was a royal PITA to work on with headers, the left side came down, curved under the frame and back in on the rear tubes in order to get enough length. They passed between the frame, steering column and box and engine. The clutch cross shaft had to come out and it had to go in from below with the car pretty high off the ground, right side was a little better but not much due to the short hood length.

The Shelby was better, left side was still a pain due the the clutch cross shaft, right side I could take the muffler loose, pull the plug wires and take it out from the top with the car on the ground.

I had a stack of real asbestos header gaskets in my garage so I didn't have to go find some when I needed them.

[Gary Lewis]

This is the 2nd set of headers I've installed, and both were a problem.  Plus, as Jim said, the 460 carb headers, which I didn't install, hit the perch on the driver's side on Big Blue.  So I'm not a fan of headers.

But, as said, I have a ton of money in these so will do my best to make them work.  And I think I can get there.  But I sure wouldn't advise anyone else to do this.

In fact, do y'all think it would be helpful to consolidate my experiences with L&L and these headers in one thread?  That way we could refer folks to something a bit more concise if they are thinking of doing this?

Having said that, Janey and I are headed out tomorrow.  Have a grocery run to make to Owasso and may have our first meal out in a month - drive through style.  So I won't be working on the truck tomorrow.  Maybe it'll go together better on Thursday.