"Powered by Ford" Grand Wagoneer...

[Gary Lewis]

Good progress!!!  And the ratchet strap idea might work pull the tranny up.

[ArdWrknTrk]

Maybe I missed it but how do you intend to connect a 2wd van transmission to your Jeep transfer case?

[Gary Lewis]

We've had that conversation and he's probably headed to work, so I'll reply with what little I know since I have a few minutes.

He plans to use the E4OD that is in the van as well as another one he got for cheap to trade/barter for a 4wd E4OD.  But he's not going to use the t-case that came in the Wagoneer.  Instead he's going to use an NP208 I had which has a very slow leak through a small crack in the case.  I think it can be welded up, and Welder Scott comes to mind for that, but I don't know what the plan is there.

[ArdWrknTrk]

If welding would distort the case you could use green (wicking) Loctite on the crack or paint the inside with Glyptal.
This is what we used to do with porous or cracked Brit-bike cases

[Gary Lewis]

That's a good idea.  Hadn't thought of that, probably because I've never used Loctite 29031 290 Green Wicking Grade.

I'm assuming that the only way to do that is get all of the old ATF out of the crack, which probably means disassembling the t-case to some extent.  But having rebuilt the BW1345 that's in Big Blue I realize that's not such a hard thing to do, and we do have plenty of documentation on it on the site, so it should be easy.

[FoxFord33]

Yep, the goal is to convert or leverage one or both into a good 4wd transmission. And thanks for the tip on sealing the case! If it stands up to ATF, it seems like a good way to avoid warping. I will check it out when I clean it up.

I had a rain delay today. As much as we have needed it here, I wanna play outside!! But I have had time to consider all your suggestions for continuing engine removal. I will be attempting to use my combination of jacks, stands, hoists, chains, and straps. Hopefully we are far enough forward to get it now. Plus, I really need to clear a spot for the trans to sit on the ground. The engine will go on the stand for disassembly.

I really want to go with a roller cam setup for longevity, but I am hesitant to do that based on the stories and threads I have been hearing about failures. I believe the guy's name is René, and I have read through his difficulties so far with cam change. If I can find good parts, then I will go for it. But how does one know? Is there such a thing as heat-treating parts for yourself? I would guess one would have to disassemble the hydraulic lifting part, treat it, and reassemble. But I have no equipment for that. I will just try to get a roller setup, or even sell or trade my block for one that is already equipped.

I remain as optimistic and excited as ever. It's great to see people read and reply to my thread here! Love it! Since it will be too wet to mow tomorrow, I guess I'll just have to make some more progress on my project...

[ArdWrknTrk]

I'm not sure how badly cracked the case is.
If it could end up a point of failure or a stress riser you may be better off welding (or heating the whole case and brazing the crack).... less chance of warpage if the whole thing gets hot!

Rollers are much less prone to wiping the cam.
And while Bill may have a sour taste in his mouth I've seen very few rollers fail without total lack of lubrication.
As I said In Rene's thread: A) Chinese are well capable of producing quality. It's the investment groups and limited partnerships that own these companies dictating penny pinching and a lack of QC.
B) Specialists still produce top quality products. You don't need a cam, lifters, pushrods and rockers that will net you a 150 mph trap time. Just don't buy the cheapest junk available. "Buy once. Cry once"

[FoxFord33]

ArdWrknTrk wrote

"Buy once. Cry once"

I like that! And I'm glad to hear my first inclination reinforced; roller lifters would have a lower theoretical fail rate due to their design. Basically the same reason I want them in the first place, but good to find validation. I guess first thing's first: Get it open and look!

[ArdWrknTrk]

Well it would be real nice if you had a late production '93 351 with the roller compatible F4TE block in it (look by the starter for the casting number)
Your van wouldn't have a roller cam and lifters but the lifter bores are longer and the bosses are cast into the valley for spiders to locate the rollers.

If so you could pick up a cam, lifters, spiders from/for any '85 & up 5.0 HO Mustang. (I had an '85 GT notch. 😁)
You'd still need proper pushrods for the taller deck 351 block but HO Mustang parts are cheap and they're everywhere.
If this were the case I'd use the Ford Racing Performance Parts (**M-6500-R302**) lifters. They're not expensive ($140)and at least you have I good chance that the factory is on top of quality control.

And any time you get into the timing case id recommend a true double roller timing set like the inexpensive Cloyes 9-1138
It may be a little louder than stock, but it will keep time without wear or stretching for MUCH longer than a stock chain.

Also note that if you go to a roller cam you need to change the iron distributor gear for steel.

All the above is a lot of if's and I'm sure some depends on how much value you can get out of the van husk.
Axles, steering, doors, cluster, seats, whatever....

Edit P/N & price

[FoxFord33]

I have seen people adapt the spider and bones to a non-roller motor, but I will have to check on the lifter bore length for any difference. I was looking at that very set of roller lifters  you mentioned. The adapter kit is $50.

The video I saw was an old HotRod TV production from the late 90's, and the guy used a handheld drill, then tapped it by hand. They cited the thickness between the valley floor and the cam journal by the numbers and said, "just don't go too deep." I think, if I am replacing the cam bearings, I could remove the old ones, drill without fear, and then the new bearings will cover any accidents. Or are the interior bearings just machined into the casting, and only the end bearings are sleeved? Hmm. I will check that, too.

[ArdWrknTrk]

You only have to check the casting number to know the bore length or that the tops of the bores are machined flat.
The cam bores are all sleeved. Nothing runs directly in the block like modern aluminum engines.

I may have watched the same episode back in the day but I don't really give these shows a lot of mind.
I've seen way too much sketchy stuff or outright misinformation and discount anything these sponsored 'build 500 up for $500' type of hype shows put on the air.

If it's not drilled use a drill stop and a bottoming tap.
Don't give yourself a chance to mess up. That would be a bad day....

The rain has come here today and I need to go get my vacuum and compressor out of my truck.

[FoxFord33]

Okay, then; it's out.

I got the engine and trans out and removed the exaust and intake manifolds. Only broke 6 bolts, so about par for the course. After they broke, I was surprised they were even still attached; they were almost rusted in half.

Here are some pictures to tell the story:














So you can see the lifter valley looks clean, if a little sooty from non-use. The rocker arms and inside the valve covers are the same. But, more confirmation that this is non-roller. Bummer! I will be weighing the cost/benefit of the original style with spider and bones vs. linked drop-ins. Next time, I will be measuring compression, and maybe removing heads.

[Gary Lewis]

Yippee!  Well done!  (And good job on the pics.)

If you are going to run a leak-down test you should do it before pulling the heads. Who knows, perhaps the engine can be used as is?

[FoxFord33]

I attempted to use the leakdown tester, but there was a bunch of water in the first cylinder, so I would have to remove the heads for deeper inspection anyway. I went ahead and tried to test the first few anyway, just for the experience. Here are a few pics of that.






...So the second gauge didn't rise past 0, which I think means it's good? But the first cylinder gurgled, and water came out of the spark plug hole. Upon removing the heads, #1 was the only wet cylinder. I inspected the bores for scoring, and I believe they look decent. There is a ledge around the deck rim on each, but perhaps it is carbon buildup? Look at these:









But I also noticed a phenomenon that might indicate something. See the colors of the rocker arms and pushrods for the driver's side vs. the passenger side? the driver's side looks cleaner. Like golden-brown. And the passenger side looks blackened, like maybe burnt or something? Nothing looked very worn or oil-starved, but I wonder if this is significant. See these photos:




So anyway, I will be taking it all apart just for peace of mind and assurance that I will have done everything I can to make this engine run as long as possible.

Next time: using an impact gun to take off the harmonic balancer!

[ArdWrknTrk]

I don't really believe I've ever seen leakdowns below 4-5%, and that would be considered 'great!'

Consider that the PCV is pulling fresh filtered air into the DS valve cover and all the crankcase blow-by up into the passenger side VC.

I can't say this is the reason you have what you observe but it is plausible (to me)
Hopefully others will chime in with what they've seen.

[Gary Lewis]

I think there is some confusion about the leak-down tester.  The formula for % leakage is (left gauge - right gauge)/left gauge.  So with the left gauge at 100 and the right gauge at 0 you have (100 - 0)/100 and that is 100% leakage.  And with the left gauge at 100 psi the right gauge basically shows you the leakage %.

So there is either something wrong in the setup for testing or in the engine.  In the setup you must have the piston on TDC on the compression stroke so both valves are closed.  Otherwise the air will escape through the valves.

If that was right then there is a problem with the engine.  It is possible that since the engine hasn't run in quite a while that the rings aren't sealed, but I'd doubt that you'd get 100% loss.

[ArdWrknTrk]

  doh!
I didn't even look at which side had air supplied.
Additionally, you want to listen for where the air is leaking (intake, exhaust or crankcase) this tells you where the pressure is leaking.

Gary, have you any thoughts on why the right side rockers are so crusty?

[FoxFord33]

Ok, I know I'm missing something. Is the left gauge in tens of psi? Because it only goes up to 15. The adapter and hose were configured to go that way, so I don't think I have it backwards. It is designed to make the hose and second gauge into a plenum extension from the cylinder through the spark plug adapter. The first (left) gauge is the gateway to the pressurized system.

Well, I think I will be glad to take the engine all down and have it gone through, anyway. At the very least, I will re-ring the pistons. The E7 heads will work for a fallback plan if I can't get aluminum heads I like, and if I use them, I will have them reworked, too.

[Gary Lewis]

 

I gave you the wrong gauge/regulator set for the left side!!!!  Yes, that one only goes to 15 PSI where the correct one goes to well over 100.

As for re-ringing, you have to break the glaze, and hopefully put a crosshatching in, or new rings won’t seat. Did you number the lifters so they can go back against their paired lobes if you want to reuse the cam?

Jim - I liked your answer on the different colors on each bank. That’s my understanding as well.

[FoxFord33]

That's OK, Gary. I wanted to check on the wet cylinder, anyway. And I haven't removed the lifters yet, but when I do, I will number them just in case.

Jim, I am with you on that theory, too. The right side is piped in to the intake, and the left side is just for oil fill.