"Powered by Ford" Grand Wagoneer...

[FoxFord33]

Gary Lewis wrote

...the 229 has both high and low range, but that it is always in 4wd mode, and that is done via the viscous coupling...

This is correct. There is-from factory-a vacuum switch on the dash for 2WD and 4WD, and there is a lever through the side of the trans tunnel for Hi - N - Lo ranges. So with the right (read: rigged) linkage, I could retain that range lever with a 208, ditch the timebomb unobtainium VC 229, and perhaps even use the vacuum switch to operate it, or make the switch into an electrical switch behind the fascia...Depending on how the 208 is/can be actuated (I haven't looked it up yet, but I will after posting!).

There are hub kits for this, as this is simply a D44 front end, and it has been done several times before. So what do you all recommend? Warn? depends on availability, I imagine.

The 229 can be mated to almost any trans because FuzzFace is correct: there is a plate/adapter from transmission to transfer case. But! if I use the 208 with E4OD, not an issue... Besides the obvious one I'm concerned about: overall length and interference with body.

They say the E4OD is a long booger, and it's true. but when looking at the actual measurements, it's still measured in inches and not miles, so it could probably be made to fit. I just worry a bit about interference with the floorboard/tunnel. I don't worry a whole bunch, because there is plenty of space beneath the hood, and Novak has already made motor mounts for a Ford for this vehicle which are adjustable. Which means I should have room for adjustment. And if I have to change the floors, that is what I will do, because at that stage, I will have probably measured and imagined and visualized all I could before getting a drivetrain, so the options will be use what I will have bought or don't! I will decide it's too late to turn back and plow ahead. Gotta take the seats out anyway to address a few issues.

I think there were some more questions I could have answered, but I forgot, and I will hit them in another post!

[FoxFord33]

I remembered a question I could answer, but I think it has been already!

85lebaront2 wrote

..Ford uses a left side front driveshaft where everyone else seems to use a right side one. This means that either the present transfer case will need to be able to connect to the E4OD in placed of the Torqueflite 727 that is probably in it now or you will have to find one that will work...

It is a driver's drop for the front! So no big deal there. Good thought!

[FoxFord33]

FuzzFace2 wrote

You may want to look into CJ5 & CJ7 motor mount kits as I think someone made Ford frame mounts to drop in the 302 into them.
Your frame I am sure is a little wider than the CJ's, cant remember now its been so long playing with the CJ's and 73 or 74 Wagoner, but want to say Jeep just made 1 of the frame mounts a little longer on 1 side for the Wagoner to fit the AMC motors in. I also want to say the frame mounts bolt in.
If you could get a kit for a CJ you would just need to do the same, 1 side longer.
Dave ----

Exactly! This is what they do at the engine mount mfr's. It does bolt into the frame, and then an optional weld can be laid along the top edge to the frame since that is how the factory ones are now.

The ethereal plan right now is to use some of these motor mounts for the wide frame Jeep and adjust as needed.

[FoxFord33]

Found some stuff RE: NP229 vs NP208.

A quote from Slick Willie on IFSJA forum:

" As far as strength, I can't vouch for differences, but I know the 208 is a strong case, and it's smaller and lighter than the 229."

And Wilsmick says:

"Swap considerations:
- I know I'll need to lengthen my rear DS to swap in NP208.
- As long as the NP208 comes out of another jeep it should be 23 spline input and bolt right in.
- shift linkage for NP208 (from another jeep) should be the same as my NP229 linkage. If I go with a NP208, I can just remove (cap-off) the vacuum stuff."

So then, It seems like size won't be an issue. If the 229 would fit, the 208 would also fit, but require more rear driveshaft and presumably use the same linkage on the floor (with consideration for overall linkage adjustment/fab with engine/trans change). The spline count will be Ford-Ford, so same difference with Wilsmick's Jeep-Jeep thing. (Edit: and! I would have had to do a different shaft to fit the 229 to Ford trans, so none of that now!)

At this point, all signs point to "do this swap during engine/trans swap because you don't want to get another rear shaft after the 229 can't be fixed for whatever future reason and you change to 208 anyway." I'm sure that was difficult to fit inside the magic 8 ball, but that's what it said, so...

[Gary Lewis]

Swiper, no swiping!  I think the length of the E4OD, even coupled with the shorter NP208, is likely to cause you to need new shafts.  But, who knows.

Having said that, you know where the NP208 is.  What I didn't point out is the pretty E4OD in Dad's truck.  We/you can measure both of them and get an idea of the total length.

[Gary Lewis]

Oh, I forgot the question about hubs.  Milemarker and Warn are the top two in my opinion.  

[FoxFord33]

Thanks, Gary!

I really meant to say that I would need driveshafts for a swap no matter which swap. But if I did the 229 first, then it gave out, then went 208, I would need one more shaft than if I skip that step. So that is more succinct...

I could just leave the slugs, and it would coast the whole front end just like currently, and use the linkage to engage TC... nothing would wear or break before its time unless I locked the TC on highway/pavement, correct? But Locking Hubs do make a nice addition for the freewheeling capability.

Does that sound right?

[Gary Lewis]

Yes, w/o "locking" hubs you'll be running the front diff and driveshaft 100% of the time.  That's wear and drag that isn't needed, but unless you go into 4wd on dry pavement it won't cause bind.

It also creates noise.  Once I was driving Dad's truck to Ark City and trying to figure out where the extra noise was coming from.  Finally figured out one hub was locked it.  Unlocked it and it went quiet again.

As for the shafts, skipping the NP229 step makes sense to me.  No sense to have two sets of driveshafts made up.

[FoxFord33]

What do you do to calculate/estimate which diff gears you actually need? It seems like a "differential equation"

...ahem... But I am not sure which variable is most important. If I were to pick, I would say a balance of good highway efficiency and some offroad capability. Nothing extreme. I might go to an offroad park for fun, but it would be tooling around on mild/moderate grade, probably not even a winch. So I need to find out if all 208's drop it the same ratio, and what that is. And what the gears in an E4OD are (I know that's on here somewhere). And then find out what my current diffs are set to. (probably either 2.73 or 3.31)

What else to consider? I know what my old truck did with 3.55's, so perhaps these axles would not tow a bunch, but I wouldn't want to anyway.

[Gary Lewis]

Many of your answers can be answered here: Documentation/Driveline/Calculators.  You'll see the E4OD and NP208 ratios.  And Novak says the 229 as the same ratios as the 208.

Pretty much all t-cases have 1:1 in High, but they vary a bit in Low range.  (Note that Big Blue's BW1345 is the lowest of the ones listed.  )

So put in your tire size (assuming you know that ) and your diff ratios and then have a play.  (It comes up with Big Blue's #'s each time you refresh.  Wonder why?)  If you get something around 1800 to 2000 RPM in OD at 65 MPH I'd think you are good.  Much lower than 17 or 1800 and you might have to shift out of OD for some hills.  But that's not a deal-breaker.

[Gary Lewis]

I forgot the reference to a class I HATED!  Diff E!  Yes, one of my degrees is in that stuff, but that was 'cause Tahlequah didn't have Engineering.

[FoxFord33]

- deleted -

I decided it was better at the beginning, so I put "The List" there.

[Gary Lewis]

Steve - I like your list.  

But, there is a way to "embed" the list in your post.  You'll need something like OneDrive or Google Drive, and put your file on there.  Then follow the instructions on the Embed tab on the page at Bullnose Forum/Forum FAQ's.

[FoxFord33]

After a hiatus caused by hard economic times for me, I have news of progress.

I have found a donor vehicle. No details yet, so I don't jinx it, but this weekend I am aiming to collect a van for its 5.8L with roller cam.

This is just the impetus I have been looking for! I just hope it turns out to be useable.

It has been a long time since last I posted, and I have been using that time to strip down everything on the Jeep. Chasing rust out of the rocker panels, etc...

Now, I will have a new adventure in figuring out how to remove the drivetrain from an E-series. But, hey! Factory Serpentine system, complete with ham can power steering! I am very excited about the prospect of boosting the number of parts in my "Got It" column. I just need to remember where I put that document, or link a new one...

More information forthcoming. Just too excited not to post. Finally! Potential Progress!

[Gary Lewis]

Excellent!  That van should work out nicely as a donor.

So, we are going after it on Friday?  I'll text you re a starting time to unload the trailer, get it out, etc.  But I think Big Blue is ready.  We just rode him hard for 525 miles and put him away wet so I'll have to check him over before we go, but have a couple of days in which to do that.

[FuzzFace2]

I take it the van is a 4x2 with AOD / EAOD?
Question I have is on the auto what will it take to make it a 4x4?
I know the TH (GM) and think the TF (MOPAR) transmissions you have to change the output shafts as there is 1 shaft for 4x2 and another for 4x4.

I say this because I used a AMC bell housing TH400 out of a Waganer and being a 4x4 I had to change the output shaft. This was not a bad thing as it was going in my AMC power drag car.

Because the output shaft is the last to come out and first to go in you are talking a trans rebuild.
This may not be a bad thing depending on miles on it and then you know it is in good to go shape.
Just something to think about.
Dave ----

[Bruce moose4x4]

You didn't say what year van? most of the later stuff 90's up the engine comes out the front. The bulkhead on top in front of radiator will come out in the center. Then just unhook everything and come out the front. Last 460 out of a van I pulled engine tranny and all.

[Gary Lewis]

As an update, we are set up to go get the van tomorrow.  Hopefully we will remember to take pics.  

[FoxFord33]

FuzzFace2 wrote

I take it the van is a 4x2 with AOD / EAOD?

 Yes, it is. I know 4wd versions existed, but this is not that. However, with this addition, I will have TWO E4OD's to choose from/sell for project money. Maybe the trans shop would take one in trade for part of the bill? Or at least I could sell one outright. In order to change it to 4wd, the whole bean needs to be shelled, so I plan to have that done. Because, you are correct; a rebuild is a very good idea! My goal is to "reset the clock" on any components I can. So, Engine and Trans to be freshened and updated where possible. Not really any extra souping-up, but maximizing the life left and balancing with the natural power found in the 351.

As for the year, I believe it to be a 96 or 97, but either way it is a late model, so roller lifter compatible, if not already equipped (probably is already equipped). And, like Bruce Moose said, the powertrain should come forward out of its current home, straight forward into my shop once the van sits in the right position.

And Gary is going to try to help me with that! Which is generous of him. I sold a Ford truck in order to collect this Jeep project, so I have been without an effective work-type vehicle since then. The eventual plan is to have a trailer for the Jeep, so I can get back to hauling my own stuff! I can tell you that a 2010 Honda Odyssey can carry 10' lumber or conduit, if you accessorize the seats properly, but not a 15 passenger van with a turtle top. I am lucky enough to live near Gary, so this major haul will probably be a light workout for Big Blue!

[Gary Lewis]

Sounds good, Steve.  See you in the morning.