Upgrade or Buy? What say you?

[Pebcak]

Picture it, the Mrs and I driving and we start talking about "The Beast".  Right now I'm in a tough spot because part of me would like to get my 1st new vehicle ever from a dealership and another part wants to do a major renovation to "The Beast" over the next couple years.  So, I'd like to ask all of you for some information/assistance/a slap in the head.

I've been toying with the idea to have engine, trans, axle, suspension, exhaust upgraded and improved.  The original look is still what I'd like butttttttttt, I'd like to have some extra under the hood and on the frame.  I want to have some fun with it and yet still have it as a daily driver without it being a gas guzzler.

With all the looking I've done while toying with the idea I found quite a few places that rebuild a 351W and upgrade everything to have the output of 450 HP.  (Like I said, I want to have some fun too) Here are a couple sites that I've tagged for reference. 450 HP 351W and 380 HP 351W

I don't know who to trust around here to ask this question and get an honest answer of what will work and won't work.  Right now I'd say that I'm looking to spend $15K.  

Y'all are the reason why I don't want to start clicking and drooling over the possibilities and going too crazy.  If I can rebuild "The Beast" I would be happier than getting a $50-60K 2018/19 truck off the lot.

All that being said, I open the floor to everyone for replies and questions.

[Gary Lewis]

Anything can be done - with enough money.  But, I need to know more about what your end goal is before answering.

I say that because a "new" Bullnose isn't going to compare well with a modern truck.  For example, I have Big Blue, which is an F250HD, and it rides roughly even with the sway bars disconnected.  Recently I rode in a friends ~2010 F350 and it rode much better.  MUCH.

Then there's towing.  As much fun as Big Blue with the 460 is to drive, if I want to tow I'll do it with my 2015 F150 due to the 3.5L Ecoboost engine.  The 2015 F150 is actually rated to tow more than the 1985 F250HD.

Now let's talk about who is going to do the work.  As Vernon found with Big Blue, finding competent mechanics is difficult.  He finally got thoroughly frustrated and gave me the truck and a boat-load full of NOS parts - after he'd put 10's of thousands of dollars into the truck itself, not to mention the loose parts.  In fact, he had enough into Big Blue to have purchased a new low-end 2015 F150 - I know because I have the receipts.  But he was farming all the work out, and it was being done extremely poorly.

However, if you are doing the work and don't expect the comfort and towing capacity of a new truck, then we have a different scenario.  So tell us more about your goal or dream and how you'd accomplish it and we can comment on that.  Are you going to have a cruiser with power?  Going to tow with authority?  Drive long distances?  

[PetesPonies]

You couldn't give me a new truck. I don't like any of them after 1996. And I am giving you the honest scoop. I have no interest. That being said, I have a lot of "vintage" vehicles. I get just as much pleasure driving my vintage trucks than someone driving a new one. I promise you that. But I have the ability to do ALL my own work, I pay for nothing. as a matter of fact, people pay me to restore their vintage machines. So I have an advantage that allows me the vintage vehicles I like. First, you would need to learn some maintenance and even repair techniques to allow you to have the older vehicle and be able to drive it as it if was new. Unless you hand someone $40K to make it new again, you may have some frustrations without being able to do some of it yourself. I also used to teach Auto, so I know that "most" people can learn to do repairs.There are the 10 thumbs and non logical minds that I am convinced never get it  :)
Personally, a 351W is not a fuel efficient engine in trucks. 10-12MPG will be all you will ever get. New trucks can get 20 mpg rather easily. But 4.9L trucks can approach that 20MPG mark. So you have to be realistic with your goals.It could be, your truck is not the best choice for what you want down the road. But another vntage truck could be .  so maybe buying something new to you, but vintage could be the answer. There are many ways to look at this. I certainly think of them often . usually while I passing a new truck with my vintage ride.  . . . . .and they are looking at and waving at me  :)

[Pebcak]

Currently it rides like a Cadillac and I love it. Don't need a stiff suspension for off road.  But if I wanted to get a load of hay or some dirt I could get from the store to home type of loads.

Towing - None/emergency minimal out of a ditch maybe.

Day to day driver about 50 miles a day to/from work.  Back roads.  Then for fun, to/from town sometimes. Maybe a drive into Downtown Dallas, Truck meet near Broken Arrow, OK  and getting groceries.

For work to be done.....  

- That depends how much I do at once and who I might be able to find.  If I just do the engine/transmission first, where I live I should be able to find a shop. I'm not THAT much a of mechanic.  I know it'd be a great learning experience but I don't have that kind of knowledge.

- My initial thought would be to have someone do the engine/transmission first.  Then do the axle/suspension. (Good/Bad thought?)

- I've also been told that it's been seen for other make/model of vehicles that you can get a rolling frame with engine/trans and drop your current body onto it.  I haven't looked into that because it was brought up to me 2 hours ago.

I'd like a cruiser with power to "Dust-A-Punk" in it if needed.

[Pebcak]

That's what has turned my head towards possibly doing this.  I love feel, ride, steering, look, ease of maintenance and the smell of an old truck.  Anything with vacuum and no OBD.

Not having a monthly payment IS nice also.  So far I've done cosmetic and little mechanical things to The Beast.  I'm learning and I have the will to learn and figure things out when I have time.  Growing up my father taught me all the basics of vehicle maintenance.  Nothing like tearing an engine out or dropping a transmission.  I'm sure I could figure it out but I have a lack of free time.

If I could be at the shop to watch them work (maybe even help) I would take time off of work to do so.  That way I could help and learn and the same time.  Glean all info I could.  But I know that probably won't happen that way.  The good news is I have a lot of people I work with that are dragster, import, classic, current mechanics.  I always have someone to turn to for immediate help if needed.

Sticking with the 351W is a choice I've made from first getting the truck and wanting to keep it as original as I can.  I don't know why but I like the old 351W.  As long as the gas mileage is over 13-15 mpg I'm ok with it.  I wouldn't have a vintage/classic truck if I was worried about mileage in the first place..

Here North/North East of Dallas, TX you'll see a LOT of 70's and 80's Chevy and Fords in the smaller towns and country.  I just blend in with the rest of them.

I love your statement of "usually while I passing a new truck with my vintage ride.  . . . . .and they are looking at and waving at me" because I get a lot of Mustang/Import kiddies that pull up to me at a stop light.  I'll beat them off the line and the first few seconds and quite a few have been impressed.  I've gotten quite a few thumbs up and have been told I surprised them.  Good feeling!!  

[Gary Lewis]

I think you need to set your sights a bit higher, on the map at least, than Broken Arrow. Make that Skiatook. 😉

But, I think I get the picture. Basically a cruiser. Good ride, lots of power, and decent economy with no, or minimal, need to tow.

If you want the power with some economy then I think the 351W is a good choice. With the right transmission you should be able to get 14 - 15 MPG running at 65 MPH. But the transmission to do that won't be a C6 as it is a gas hog. The AOD wasn't ever put behind the 351 due to its lack of strength, but aftermarket builders have learned how to beef them up to easily take 400 HP. On the other hand, the E4OD was initially stronger, but needs an electronic controller that will cost you ~$800.  Or, you can go with a manual tranny, but I'd shy away from the ZF5 if you want a sporty/quick truck. The ZF is a truck transmission and if you want the synchros to live you'll shift it like a truck transmission- slowly. That will kill your acceleration, which is why Dad's truck is getting an E4 and Big Blue is getting the built ZF.

As for doing work vs hiring it done, I hire out my transmission and engine building as well as paint and body work. I've had more than one instance of a machine shop not doing the work correctly, and that's a huge problem on an engine. So I've learned to hire others to build the major components, and that includes differentials. But I can do the other work as well as install the components they build.

That will reduce costs as well as speed up the process because you can have several vendors working at the same time. Or, you can do as you said and do the engine and tranny at one time and then move on to their parts later. Let your budget be the guideline.  

[Pebcak]

I knew you'd get the gist of the statement.  I couldn't spell Skiatook and I've been to Broken Arrow back in the 90's.  I knew it was close.  One of our production plants is near there.

After reading what you've said about getting things done a bit at a time to ensure it's all done correctly.  Now I know I'm not completely crazy.

No paint job for me!  At most I might put a clear coat on it....maybe....someday.   I just love the look of it the way it is.  A "work truck" and anymore dents or peeled paint add to the character.

Once I (no pun intended) "paint" a clear picture of what's in my head I'll need some help with specs, part #'s, Edelbrock, Summit, Ford, Foose (LOL) and what I might need to start a list.  I can see it in my head but I don't know the parts to put the puzzle together with.  Heck, I'm even up for someplace to site a read and learn what fits together and doesn't for this application.

This is a long term goal 2018/19 so it's no emergency.  I need to save up and I don't want to hurry this.

[Gary Lewis]

Ok, we will reserve your show spot for Sept of 2019.  

Yep, I got the inference and knew what you meant.  As for the parts, it shouldn't be a problem.  We will help you dream and plan.  

[PetesPonies]

If you don't care how it looks, that opens up a lot more possibilities. Me, I care. But I'm realistic depending on the usage. My '81 with be a DD of sorts. I want it to look good and perform well, be as comfortable as possible, but it will get wear. If you take care of things they will last. My other trucks are more toys, so they are taken to a higher level and expected to stay, somewhat, there  :) If all you want is a mechanical rebuild of your truck, there's no reason it can't be done in stages. You really have nothing in the way of doing it in the order you refer. It's when you include body restoration that stages get ordered.

[Ford F834]

Well the fact that you are asking this question on a vintage truck forum begs the question if perhaps you have already made up your mind? This is really a matter of taste and financial position. You can argue either case. Personally I just don’t care for new cars, they perform well but they are boring and sterile and I get no joy out of driving one. I like the ride of these older pickups, I think the 1980-1991 truck seats are the most comfortable I have ever sat in, and I just flat out dig driving my bullnose Fords. The only reason I don’t daily drive one is the length of my commute and the fuel bill that would result. The only way I know to get north of 20 mpg in a Bullnose and still be able to “dust-a-punk”, as you put it, is with a turbo’d IDI. You have to like diesels though, and most people either do or don’t. If you are a gas V8 guy, I’m sure you can find a tuning and gearing combination that will make you happy. I enjoyed my 400 4-speed truck, but as the saying goes it could pass anything except a gas station. I will leave you with one final thought. When comparing new and old you are comparing the finished truck. The old truck is going to be more about the journey of rebuilding than the product. If you are not all about that journey then head to the dealership or at the very least shop for a finished truck that is ready to drive. Gary already touched on this with Vernon’s experience.

[Pebcak]

The longer I've had my 86 the more I love the older vehicles.  I have minimal issues with it than the other three 07-later vehicles we have at the house.  I absolutely love how the truck rides.  It's smooth, easy going and solid.  Anyone here knows what I mean by solid.  Newer vehicles just don't feel solid when you drive them.  They're all light, fiberglass and plastic.

It's funny that you mention the truck seats.  I thought about it riding in this morning that I need to redo mine soon. The cushion is starting to sag a little.  That will be a fun project I'll enjoy doing on a weekend.  I may even leave the seat cover off and go all original.

As I've stated earlier, I only have 50 miles a day going 30-45 mph 95% of the way.  I've driven all the vehicles to work the same way and there isn't THAT much of a difference in price.  I think it's around $10 extra a week to drive The Beast.

When I get closer to making my list of wants and needs I know I'll have to re-evaluate my "Dust-A-Punk" capability.  That's something that could increase the price tag exponentially.  It’ll probably be scaled down because it’s the kid in me that would love to have fun with it.

With your final thought that you gave me I can say that I’m into rebuilding/updating to an extent this truck.  I still would like to stick to the original scheme for most things.  If anyone was to go to the old forum you’d see that I’ve had a fun journey so far with my truck.  I sincerely want to keep up with this journey.  This is hopefully going to be a long time relationship.

I honestly know that I won’t ever get the money out of it that I put in.  I’m not in this to sell or “flip it” for a profit.  But, I want to be smart about what I do so I don’t end up in a situation like Vernon or may other classic vehicles online. You know, the ones for sale in pieces because the owner had plans but never pulled the trigger to do it, got in wayyyy over their heads or lastly, they want $$$$$$ for a vehicle that just isn’t worth it to a majority of the population.

[Pebcak]

Yesterday/today I put some feelers out with a couple coworkers.

The first guy deals with vintage/antique cars and trucks.  He’s always buying/selling and going on day trips around the U.S. to pick them up to clean up and sell locally here in Dallas.

He was saying that there are a lot of options out there to look at.  Of course he started with the high value options and I had to reign him back in.  LOL  He’s got a few contacts of shops in the area and will get with them to see what they know about 80’s pickups and get back to me.

He's looking into a (this is his term) “Rolling Chassis” for my truck with all the things I want on it where I could just swap the shell from the old to new.  Then get a Core cost back to me to give the shop the old stuff.  I’m not too sure about this but he’s going to see what he can find.

The second guy (Doug Morrison) is a drag guy that does good for himself.  He helped me pull back from the “clicking and drooling over the possibilities and going too crazy.” I was talking about in my initial post.  He reaffirmed my thoughts that I need to be in this for the long haul or not spend the time or money on this.  If I wanted it like that he said to go buy something that’s ready to roll.  It’s still the adventure and learning experience I want.  A few things I took away from the conversation are.

- An engine with 300 HP is more than I’m getting out of mine now and will be plenty for “Dust-A-Punk”
- EFI should be a must!  He said that it will help an average engine more than I could ever know. Which I don’t know much as most of you know. LOL
- Overdrive on the Transmission
- Something about the Cams?  I’ll get more details later.
- Doing the engine/trans together at a shop isn’t a bad idea at all.
- He has a shop he’s used that WILL do all that work and they specialize in pre 90’s vehicle work.

This is all so great because I'm excited about this because it's something I truly like.  I'm at a point in my life where I have people I can ask and get honest answers from.  Thank You guys!

[Gary Lewis]

I agree that 300 HP is enough.  To put that in perspective, I got 409 HP from the Tim Meyer-built 400 for Dad's truck, and you can see what it has in my signature.  In other words, it costs a lot of money to get that kind of power - especially when you understand that you really shouldn't be looking for HP but for torque.  Dad's engine puts out 498 ft-lbs down low, which is where a truck needs it.

Getting the torque down low means you are going to forego high HP 'cause that requires the torque to be at high RPM.  HP = Torque x RPM ÷ 5252.  So, instead of having gotten 498 ft-lbs at 3400 RPM, if we shift that up to 5000 RPM then the engine would have put out 474 HP.  But that would have meant the engine would be short of torque on the bottom end and require lots of revving to make anything happen.

As for EFI making a huge difference, that's not always true - unless he meant port-injection.  There are basically two kinds of EFI - throttle body and port.  Throttle body is just a direct replacement for a carb and can use the same intake manifold.  So the only difference is you have a computer running the fuel/air mix and it can be kept much closer than with a carb.  A carb can be tuned to give a fairly good air/fuel ratio, but only within a narrow range of operating conditions.  However, a computer running the throttle-body injection system can get it close at all times.

But note that I said "close".  That's because with a throttle-body system you cannot control the fuel/air mix at each cylinder, and since the intake manifold alters the mix to each cylinder you can only find a good average.  However, if you go with port injection the computer can tailor the fuel/air mix to each cylinder, and that's where the real improvements come in.

But I fully agree with the comment on an OD tranny.  See my earlier post, but a C6 isn't what you want.

Cam: He may have been talking about a roller cam and lifters.  They are more modern than the flat-tappet cams our trucks came with, and both reduce friction and allow a wider range of profiles.  However, they cost more, for sure.  Or, he may have been talking about how much lift and timing to use.  But those are the things that move your torque peak and, therefore, determine how much horsepower you have.  And the higher in the RPM range you move the torque peak the harder the engine is to live with on a daily basis.

[Ford F834]

Wise words regarding cams Gary. Originally I bought what is known around the internet as the J2 cam. I later learned that this made the engine very soft at low rpm, especially in overdrive gear, but pulled like crazy up top. This may be oversimplifying things, but to maximize the horsepower peak you need the engine to "breathe" (flow a lot of volume in and out of the head at high rpm. This requires lift and long duration timing events allow flow in and out. This is at the expense of timing needed to build cylinder pressure that generates torque. So you end up killing the pressure in favor of volume. When I think of torque vs horsepower I liken it to quality vs quantity of power. The more quantity of power you make (hp) the quality (tq) will suffer. I ended up buying a Stage 1 R&D cam which has the strongest torque curve of any regrind yet tested. I'm sure it won't breathe enough for me to get maximum hp out of my fuel's potential, but who really cares except the dyno machine? I will take a more potent torque curve over a higher horsepower peak any day.

[Pebcak]

Taking copious notes…..

All I know if what I read and seen over the years.  Horepower, Horepower, Horsepower.  It’s good to see that I’m not being led astray.

So my links I found of the engines were overkill. This is the EXACT info I’m looking for.  Why spend the $$ for something I’m not going to come close to utilizing?  I’ll rely on y’alls experience in this to get me set straight.

I started getting the “deer in the headlights” trying to keep up with terms about Fuel Injection. Some of what you’re saying is ringing a bell.  Something about a computer that is self-learning where it won’t have to be tweaked or adjusted that often.  He said it might be something around $800-1,000ish extra for it but I won’t be disappointed in the long run.  Since I’m in this for the long haul (no pun intended) with keeping the truck.

I saw your earlier comment about not keeping the C6.  It’s good to see that the three of you are saying the same things pretty much.  It would be pretty dumb of me to not listen to your combined experiences and knowledge.  Correct me on this if I’m totally off base.  Wouldn’t something like a C4 with AOD work?  I don’t know brand/specs.  I’m just talking basics here.  C6’s were for things like towing and work around the farm.  C4’s are more for highway type driving and better MPG?

Now the Cam, would that already be taken care of with a rebuilt engine?  Or the case that it isn’t that difficult to get it swapped out before the engine is installed right?

[Gary Lewis]

Last first - you don't want just a "rebuilt" engine.  You want one built for what you want to do with it.  A rebuilt will probably have 8.0:1 compression ratio.  But you can run 9.5:1 with pump gas and get better fuel economy as well as power.  But, you have to couple the cam discussion with the head material and combustion chamber discussion with the piston discussion with the ............

Brandon/Bruno2 is going through this discussion as I type.  His target is 9.5:1, but he's going with aluminum heads, and he's going with aluminum since building up nice cast iron ones gets costly enough that aluminum isn't that much more.  In some ways that's a waste as aluminum allows you to run more like 10.5:1 on pump gas since it pulls heat out of the combustion chamber so quickly.  Anyway, to calculate static compression ratio you have to know:

How far down in the block the pistons set

The volume of the piston's dome/dish, in cc's

The thickness of the headgasket as well as the diameter of the hole

The volume of the combustion chamber in the head, in cc's

With cast iron heads I'd target 9.5:1, and with aluminum heads I'd go 10.5:1 - as I did with Dad's engine.  And I'd get the machine shop to "zero deck" the block, meaning get the top of the piston to come to exactly the top of the block.  That will require playing with the rod and piston combinations as well as the existing block to determine where each should go and how much to take off the block.  Then I'd use a .039" thick head gasket.  With those "givens" I'd play with piston dish and combustion chamber volumes to get the compression ratio where I wanted it.

But, a good engine builder will do all of that for you if you tell him that's what you want to do.  Tell him to go for either 9.5 or 10.5:1 depending on the head material, to zero deck the block to get squish/quench, and give you a cam for low-end torque.

Now for the tranny, Ford had the C4, C5, C6, AOD, and E4OD autos.  The C4 is a light-duty trans that can be built pretty strong, but the only reason to go with it over the C6 is that is requires a bit less power to run it.  But it still has no OD and no lock-up torque converter, so it still hurts MPG.  The C5 is an oddball that could have been good but wasn't developed.

So I'd suggest either the AOD or the E4OD.  Both effectively have a lock-up torque converter, which reduces slippage while going down the highway, and both have an overdrive gear.  The AOD has to be beefed up to stand up to a 351W while the E4 came behind 460's, so started life stronger.  But it takes a computer to run it.  So either are fairly expensive to get set up the way you'd want them.  However, they'll be much better to use on a daily basis.  So, find a good trans shop and get their recommendation.

[grumpin]

Gary said,

"So I'd suggest either the AOD or the E4OD.  Both effectively have a lock-up torque converter, which reduces slippage while going down the highway, and both have an overdrive gear.  The AOD has to be beefed up to stand up to a 351W while the E4 came behind 460's, so started life stronger.  But it takes a computer to run it.  So either are fairly expensive to get set up the way you'd want them.  However, they'll be much better to use on a daily basis.  So, find a good trans shop and get their recommendation."

I had an E4OD behind a 460 and it was troublesome. I have one in my 92 Bronco with the 351W and it's been great.

As Gary said find a good shop or look around online, some folks beefed them up to handle the Powerstrokes.
I remember Brian's Truck Shop was popular some time ago.

IMO the E4OD won't take the horsepower and torque of the 460.

I have a C6 in my 1986 F250 with the 460 and 3.55 gears and I like it. But it's not my long haul rig, yet.  

[Gary Lewis]

Yes, BTS is still around and is well thought of.  I talked with him about an E4OD for Dad's truck and his bottom-line tranny is good for 500 HP according to him.  I haven't decided on who will build it, but it will be an E4OD.

[Nothing Special]

Gary Lewis wrote

....The AOD has to be beefed up to stand up to a 351W while the E4 came behind 460's, so started life stronger.  But it takes a computer to run it.  So either are fairly expensive to get set up the way you'd want them.  However, they'll be much better to use on a daily basis.  So, find a good trans shop and get their recommendation.

The AOD also needs to mechanically talk to the carb (or throttle body if EFI).  If I recall correctly this is called the TV linkage, I believe it closes the throttle briefly during shifts so the trans isn't shifting under heavy load.  If that's not in place and adjusted correctly the AOD won't live long.  I would imagine that getting an AOD built up would make it more resistant to that type of abuse, but I'd think it would still need to be hooked up correctly to be reliable in the long run.  But the "good trans shop" that Gary recommended ought to know that and should factor it into their recommendations.

[PetesPonies]

If you don't mind spending the money, adding port injection from another Ford 351, would be a great addition. dealing with EEC IV is easy to do and a great system IMO. It's a relatively easy swap. EFI will give you across the board proper A/F ratio ( which is efficiency in both fuel mileage and power ), which a carbureted system just cannot do.  If I were you and considering this, I' d buy a Lightning engine, or clone engine. That would be exactly what you need. Actually, finding a wrecked Lightning would give you a lot of things you would want.