SS Fastener List??

[Bruno2]

I am going to do some SS fasteners on this build.

So far I plan to do the oil pan bolts, intake manifold, and possibly water pump ( it's a Windsor so the wp bolts are wonky lengths.) .

Any more suggestions?

PS, I will post lengths, diameters and thread pitch as I go for documentation purposes.

[Gary Lewis]

Exhaust manifold.

[Bruno2]

I need to come up with a plan for the ones that are studs...

[Bruno2]

Gary, I need to edit the title. How do I do that?

It says AS instead of SS. My phone auto corrected it for me.

[Bruno2]

I believe I have SS studs for the carb. I probably need to get some SS nuts and washers for them as well.

[85lebaront2]

Don't use your damn phone or proof read before you send. On SS (technically CRES) you need to look at the strength, there are various grades of CRES. 304 CRES, comes as condition A or condition B, condition B is much stronger than condition A. Condition A is roughly like grade 2, condition B is somewhere between grade 5 and grade 8. CRES will also gall horribly, particularly condition A, you need a good anti-seize on them. 304, 304L (leaded) are primarily Chrome and Nickel, 316 and 316L also contain Molybdenum. and if I remember correctly are for higher temperature. I don't have access to all the specs right now like I did when I was still at NNS. I believe you can look up the ASTM specs on-line, or maybe in a library.

[Gary Lewis]

Edit your first post by clicking More/Edit Post in the upper right, and change the title.

[Bruno2]

K

[85lebaront2]

Brandon, you should be able to buy CRES allthread and make some, also look at Fastenal and even Gary's favorite, Amazon.

[Gary Lewis]

Brandon called to ask what I know about stainless fasteners, which isn't much.  My Carroll Smith Nuts, Bolts, Fasteners and Plumbing Handbook doesn't appear to say much about them.  But my Pocket Reference by Thomas J. Glover says that both 18-8 and 316 stainless have 75,000 lb/sq inch minimum tensile strength.

On-line I found that the Bolt Depot says this:

Stainless Steel
Stainless steel is an alloy of low carbon steel and chromium for enhanced corrosion characteristics. Stainless steel is highly corrosion resistant for the price. Because the anti-corrosive properties are inherent to the metal, it will not lose this resistance if scratched during installation or use.

It is a common misconception that stainless steel is stronger than regular steel. In fact, due to their low carbon content, many stainless steel alloys cannot be hardened through heat treatment. Therefore, when compared to regular steel, the stainless alloys used in bolts are slightly stronger than an un-hardened (grade 2) steel but significantly weaker than hardened steel fasteners. Unless great care is taken, stainless fasteners are susceptible to seizing up during installation, a phenomenon known as galling.

Most stainless steel fasteners are much less magnetic than regular steel fasteners though some grades will be slightly magnetic.

18-8 Stainless
18-8 refers to any stainless steel containing approximately 18% chromium and 8% nickel. This is the most common stainless designation for hardware. For information on 18-8 stainless steel material properties see our Material Grade Identification and Properties Chart.

Stainless 316
A highly corrosion resistant grade of stainless steel. Ideal in salt water and chlorine environments. More expensive than 18-8.

Stainless 410
A stainless alloy that is harder than 18-8 stainless steel, but not as resistant to corrosion.

And Fastenal says this is their Technical Reference Guide on fasteners:

Stainless Steel
Stainless steel is a family of iron-based alloys that must contain at least 10.5% chromium. The presence of
chromium creates an invisible surface film that resists oxidation and makes the material “passive” or
corrosion resistant. Other elements, such as nickel or molybdenum are added to increase corrosion
resistance, strength or heat resistance.
Stainless steels can be simply and logically divided into three classes on the basis of their microstructure;
austenitic, martensitic or ferritic. Each of these classes has specific properties and basic grade or “type.”
Also, further alloy modifications can be made to alter the chemical composition to meet the needs of
different corrosion conditions, temperature ranges, strength requirements, or to improve weldability,
machinability, work hardening and formability.
Austenitic stainless steels contain higher amounts of chromium and nickel than the other types. They are
not hardenable by heat treatment and offer a high degree of corrosion resistance. Primarily, they are nonmagnetic;
however, some parts may become slightly magnetic after cold working. The tensile strength of
austenitic stainless steel varies from 75,000 to 105,000 psi.
18-8 Stainless steel is a type of austenitic stainless steel that contains approximately 18% chromium and
8% nickel. Grades of stainless steel in the 18-8 series include, but not limited to; 302, 303, 304 and XM7.

Common austenitic stainless steel grades:
• 302: General purpose stainless retains untarnished surface finish under most atmospheric conditions
and offers high strength at reasonably elevated temperatures. Commonly used for wire products such
as springs, screens, cables; common material for flat washers.
• 302HQ: Extra copper reduces work hardening during cold forming. Commonly used for machine
screws, metal screws and small nuts
• 303: Contains small amounts of sulfur for improved machinability and is often used for custom-made
nuts and bolts.
• 304: Is a low carbon-higher chromium stainless steel with improved corrosion resistance when
compared to 302. 304 is the most popular stainless for hex head cap screws. It is used for cold
heading and often for hot heading of large diameter or long bolts.
• 304L: Is a lower carbon content version of 304, and therefore contains slightly lower strength
characteristics. The low carbon content also increases the 304L corrosion resistance and welding
capacity.
• 309 & 310: Are higher in both nickel and chromium content than the lower alloys, and are
recommended for use in high temperature applications. The 310 contains extra corrosion resistance to
salt and other aggressive environments.
• 316 & 317: Have significantly improved corrosion resistance especially when exposed to seawater and
many types of chemicals. They contain molybdenum, which gives the steel better resistance to surface
pitting. These steels have higher tensile and creep strengths at elevated temperatures than other
austenitic alloys.
Austenitic stainless steel limitations:
• They are suitable only for low concentrations of reducing acids.
• In crevices and shielded areas, there might not be enough oxygen to maintain the passive oxide film
and crevice corrosion might occur.
• Very high levels of halide ions, especially the chloride ion can also break down the passive surface
film.
Martensitic stainless steels are capable of being heat treated in such a way that the martensite is the prime
microconstituent. This class of stainless contains 12 to 18% chromium. They can be hardened by heat
treatment, have poor welding characteristics and are considered magnetic. The tensile strength of
5
martensitic stainless steel is approximately 70,000 to 145,000 psi. This type of stainless steel should only
be used in mild corrosive environments.
Common martensitic stainless steel grades:
• 410: A straight chromium alloy containing no nickel. General-purpose corrosion and heat resisting,
hardenable chromium steel. It can be easily headed and has fair machining properties. Due to their
increased hardness, are commonly used for self-drilling and tapping screws. These are considered
very inferior in corrosion resistance when compared with some of the 300.
• 416: Similar to 410 but has slightly more chromium, which helps machinability, but lowers corrosion
resistance.
Ferritic stainless steels contain 12 to 18% chromium but have less than 0.2% carbon. This type of steel is
magnetic, non-hardenable by heat treatment and has very poor weld characteristics. They should not be
used in situations of high corrosion resistance requirements.
Common ferritic stainless steel grades:
• 430: Has a slightly higher corrosion resistance than Type 410 stainless steel.
Precipitation Hardening Stainless Steel
Precipitation hardening stainless steels are hardenable by a combination of low-temperature aging
treatment and cold working. Type 630, also known commercially as 17-4 PH, is one of the most widely
used precipitated hardened steels for fasteners. They have relatively high tensile strengths and good
ductility. The relative service performance in both low and high temperatures is reasonably good.

[Bruno2]

looks like 430 is the way to go.

[ArdWrknTrk]

I really only find 304 and 316 nuts and bolts locally. And 409 for use as exhaust tubing.

None of these external fasteners are critical or highly torqued.
A water pump or exhaust manifold is likely to see 30-40 f-lb, oil pans and valve covers are in inches.

No need to get crazy about choosing an alloy.

Would I use cres for a flywheel or connecting rod?
Not likely, but you could find jet nuts or superalloy aerospace fasteners that would exceed spec.

Up here we used to have contractors that made and sold high quality fasteners to local businesses like Pratt & Whitney,  and Sikorsky.
Almost all of that manufacturing has gone, and with it the surplus/reject outlets.

[Gary Lewis]

Jim - What would you recommend for exhaust manifold bolts?

[ArdWrknTrk]

I'm not reccomending anything, just pointing out that almost *any* bolt will work for these applications.

I used regular hardware store stainless bolts for the exhaust manifolds when i swapped my engine (10 years ago*!*)
They are still shiny and have a full hex.

Even the bolts in the waterpump jacket looked fine when I replaced it a year or two back.

Carbon is higher on the galvanic (nobility?) scale than any metals.
Often the higher rated fasteners are going to corrode faster due to the carbon in them.

Electrolytics is not my forte but im assuming corrosion happens because dissimlar metals in the presence of an electrolyte and oxygen is scavenging metal ions.

[Gary Lewis]

I agree that about any bolt will work for these applications from a tension standpoint.  Just wondering if you know what works from a corrosion standpoint.  Sounds like about anything does.  Thanks.

[ArdWrknTrk]

430 is definitely corrosion resistant, but seems difficult to find in fasteners outside of chemical processing fields.
Maybe better availability down there due to refineries and such.

Does Bolt Depot offer 430 fasteners in the sizes needed?

[Gary Lewis]

Haven't found 430's on the Bolt Depot, yet, but did find the following.  Looks like lubrication is highly recommended with stainless.

What is Thread Galling?
Thread galling occurs during installation when pressure and friction cause bolt threads to seize to the threads of a nut or tapped hole. It is also known as "cold welding".

Once a fastener has seized up from galling it is typically impossible to remove without cutting the bolt or splitting the nut.

What Bolts Are Susceptible To Galling?
Galling is most often seen in stainless steel (especially when using lock nuts), aluminum, and titanium. Fasteners with damaged threads and fine threads are particularly prone to galling. Hardened steel bolts, especially when zinc plated, rarely gall.

What Can I Do to Prevent Galling?
Slow Down Installation Speed
Because heat generated by friction is a contributing factor in galling, slowing down the installation speed can prevent galling. It is recommended that power tools not be used for the installation of stainless steel or other fasteners prone to galling. This is especially important when using nylon insert lock nuts as these nuts significantly increase the chance of galling.

Don't Use Bolts to Pull Joints Together
Bolts are not designed to pull together a joint or force materials into position. Doing so drastically increases the chance of galling. The materials being bolted should already be in place so the nut can be spun down by hand until the final tightening. If necessary, use clamps to hold the joint together during bolting.

Use a Lubricant
Special anti-seizing or anti-galling lubricants can be used to dramatically reduce the chance of galling. Examples include MRO Solutions 1000 Antiseize, Permatex® Anti-Seize Lubricant, Finish Line™ Anti-Seize Assembly Lube and USS Ultra Tef-Gel®.

Even a standard lubricant, such as WD-40®, can help reduce friction and prevent galling. Some nuts are available with a waxed finish to reduce the risk of galling.

Avoid Damaged or Dirty Threads
Check for damage to the threads of each bolt, especially bolts with fine thread. You should be able to put a standard nut on a bolt by hand. If not, it may indicate dented or damaged threads.

Also note that debris in the threads of a fastener can greatly increase the chances of galling. Always use clean parts.

Use Extra Care With Lock Nuts
Nylon insert lock nuts and, especially, prevailing torque nuts generate a large amount of friction and heat during installation. If you are experiencing galling problems, slow down installation speed or consider a different locking mechanism.

If a Fastener Begins to Bind: STOP
If a fastener begins to bind before you are actually tightening it down, stop immediately. Wait a minute or two to allow any heat to dissipate and then back the fastener off. Inspect the threads for damage and try again with a new nut.

Anti-seize thread lubricants
An anti-seize lubricant can be very effective in preventing galling.

Bolt with damaged threads
Do not use fasteners with damaged or dirty threads.

Nylon insert lock nut
Stainless nylon insert lock nuts are especially prone to galling.

Why Fasteners Gall
Why Are Stainless Bolts Prone to Galling?
Stainless, aluminum, and titanium fasteners form thin protective oxide films on their exposed surfaces that prevent corrosion. In addition, this coating reduces friction and prevents direct metal to metal contact during fastening.

The protective oxide film can be rubbed or scraped off under the pressure and movement of the fastener being tightened. When this happens these relatively soft metals come into direct contact. Friction increases and the chance of galling increases significantly.

What Is Actually Happening?
Thread surfaces have microscopic high points that can rub together during fastening. In most cases this does not present a problem as the points slide over each other without damage.

Under certain conditions however, the surfaces will not slide past each other. The high points will then shear and lock together, greatly increasing friction and heat. As tightening continues the increased pressure results in more material being sheared off the threads. This cycle continues with even more shearing and locking until the threads are destroyed and the fastener will no longer turn in either direction.

[FuzzFace2]

85lebaront2 wrote

Brandon, you should be able to buy CRES allthread and make some, also look at Fastenal and even Gary's favorite, Amazon.

 Don't over look https://www.mcmaster.com/#
Thing is you may have to buy in "lots of". I bought my bed carriage bolts (50), nuts (50) and nutserts (10) in the lots noted.
Dave ----

[ArdWrknTrk]

Oh, you absolutely need lubricant when assembling/disassmbling stainless fasteners.
Nickel based antiseize seems to make sense here.

But not so much when threading into something like cast iron or brass.

Stainless on stainless will gall and get very hot.
Sometimes you won't be able to get the nut off, and then you either have to break it or cut it free.

Pretty sure both Bill and I have mentioned this before.
I think this is why people say stainless is 'gummy'

[Gary Lewis]

Dave - Good point.  And we have a Grainger's, which is not far from Brandon.

Jim - Yes, I think lubrication has been mentioned, but I was afraid it had gotten lost in the shuffle so wanted to highlight it to Brandon.