Rembrant's new non-Bullnose project

[Rembrant]

ArdWrknTrk wrote

I'm surprised those barb fittings were stupid expensive. They're only reverse flare on the bowl side, aren't they?

They're not even flared...they seal with a washer.

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/hly-26-24

I shouldn't say that the items themselves were stupid expensive, but two of them were $31 and then another $31 to ship them, times 1.4 FX and tax, they cost me about $90 delivered LOL.

Gary Lewis wrote

But $7/gallon?  Yikes!  Even with the exchange rate that's over $5 US/gallon.  Here its about $3.50.

Well, $1.763 per liter this week, whatever that works out to. I had it as $7 bucks in my head, but maybe not quite that bad currently.

[Gary Lewis]

My math says that's $4.89 US/gallon.  But my degree is over 50 years old and I hear there is a new math, so...

[Rembrant]

Gary Lewis wrote

My math says that's $4.89 US/gallon.  But my degree is over 50 years old and I hear there is a new math, so...

Ya, so about $6.70 CAN for me. Not quite seven bucks, but close enough.

I just got a company vehicle again....a Dodge Ram that I really dislike, but it came with a company gas card too, so I'm OK with it. I sold my Tacoma (which wasn't great on fuel) and my wife works at home, so our gas bills are relatively low these days. Still, they're worth complaining about.

A big part of the reason for installing a trans with OD in my old '52 project truck is so that I can drive it (a lot), and potentially take it on trips. If it gets anywhere near what this Hemi ram gets for MPG, I'll be happy, but I'm not optimistic about it.

[Gary Lewis]

Depending on the speeds you drive I'd expect 15 - 17 with your project truck.  What does the Ram get?

Btw, speaking of Ram, doesn't it feel strange to run around with the equivalent of a Kick Me sign on your rear?  

[Rembrant]

Gary Lewis wrote

Depending on the speeds you drive I'd expect 15 - 17 with your project truck.  What does the Ram get?

Btw, speaking of Ram, doesn't it feel strange to run around with the equivalent of a Kick Me sign on your rear?  

I've only put a couple thousand miles on it since I got it, but so far it has been hitting 18-19 MPG. That's with a mix of city and hwy. With a full tank on the hwy it'll probably do 20 if I balloon foot it. I believe the truck has the MDS, or multi-displacement-system that deactivates 4 of the 8 cylinders under low load for saving fuel. Otherwise, I thought the Hemi's were PIG'S on fuel, but this one seems to be OK. It's a 2018 with about 40k miles on it.

As for the kick me sign...hahaha...well, I'm not overly brand loyal to anything, but I have never owned or particularly liked Dodge trucks. I like the old tin grilled Power Wagons of the 1970's, but the newer ones not so much. It's a nice truck to drive and all, but coming from a Toyota Tacoma it feels a bit loose and clunky to me. I had a 2006 F150 company truck for quite a few years, and it was a decent rig. I'd prefer an F150 over a Dodge, but beggars can't be choosers as they say. If the company is buying I'll take what they're offering lol.

As for the '52 Merc mileage, I guess we will see. Will it be more or less aerodynamic than my Bullnose trucks? It's about the same weight as my '84 Flareside was. I have high hopes for the 500CFM Summit carb on the basically stock 5.0 with the later F4 cam. The 4R70W has a taller OD than the M5OD, but this truck has 3.55 gears compared to my old Bullnose with the 3.08's. In any case, I'd be happy with mid to high teens MPG, and absolutely ecstatic if it hit 20 MPG, but I'm not crossing my fingers on that one.

[Gary Lewis]

I had a Chrysler 300C with the Hemi & MDS as a company car when I was working and it routinely got 20+ MPG on the highway.  Loved that car as it went like a banshee and looked wonderful.  But it had plenty of technical glitches as well.

I think you'll see in the mid to high teens on your Merc.  It isn't aerodynamic, but neither is a Bullnose, and some of them will get in that range of MPG.  I think one of the keys will be the driving conditions - reasonable speeds with not a lot of stop and go will obviously be best.  Is that the kind of driving you do?

[Rembrant]

Gentlemen,

I'm starting to do some preliminary wiring (RE-wiring) of my '52 pickup. I have completely gutted all wiring and I'm installing a new Painless Performance complete wiring kit. One little hiccup I have run into is the heater blower fan. The truck will be complete 12v now, but the blower motor will still be the original 6v (I can't find a 12v motor for it).

There is currently only one wire going from the switch to the fan motor, and the motor is grounded to the heater housing via  short wire (according to the diagrams). The truck was previously converted to 12v, but everything inside the cab was left at 6v, and I don't know what they did with the lights...most of them were burned out when I got the truck. The original starter spun insanely fast, so I assume it was the original 6v starter with 12v being supplied to it. Anyway...those issues are all gone now, and the blower motor is all that remains.

There was one of these little aftermarket voltage reducers clipped to the dash, so I assume this was installed for the blower fan since the blower fan did actually work.

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/smp-ru100

I could probably reuse it, but it is only rated for 4amps, and the blower motor draws 10amps according to the factory service manual.

I was looking at this little 12v-6v adapter below...seems neat and tidy and cheap:

https://www.amazon.ca/MGGi-Converter-Regulator-Transformer-Waterproof/dp/B08BXFC6MD/?_encoding=UTF8&pd_rd_w=EYQog&content-id=amzn1.sym.b09e9731-f0de-43db-b62a-8954bcec282c&pf_rd_p=b09e9731-f0de-43db-b62a-8954bcec282c&pf_rd_r=ZYJD8HEKVNHE80N9WZE1&pd_rd_wg=f8zda&pd_rd_r=eafed8b9-f0b6-4e79-9571-a38335d54ff8&ref_=pd_gw_ci_mcx_mr_hp_atf_m&th=1

The truck also has the blower switch installed currently:

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/smp-hs98

That's a lot of rambling, I know lol. I guess my question is...everything is currently set up for one wire operation. The voltage reducer, the switch, and the fan. If I buy the 10amp Amazon voltage reducer, which is two wire, what do I do with the 12v negative wire?

I assume I would wire the negative wire directly to the fan motor, and bypass the switch (since the switch it setup for one wire operation only). Run the v+ through the switch...but would I have the switch on the 12v side or the 6v side? Does it matter?

Probably confusing, I know. This is the one snag I have run into with my wiring so far.

[ArdWrknTrk]

Cory, the Amazon.US page for that MGGI voltage converter says the  negative wires are not isolated and can be bonded together.

I'd leave the motor grounded to the housing and bond both negatives to the truck.

Personally I'd put the resistor on the output. The converter is listed as having an input range of 9-35V dc.
But it is solid state and will want to be regulating that variable input to 6V, so putting the resistor on the input isn't going to effect the output until you get below the 9V threshold, and at that point it will probably just switch off.

Also note it says that it is 'not to be used long time at full load', but doesn't give a duty cycle.
So the "dumb" 4A regulator might be overheating at 10A draw but continue to function, while the solid state unit might just trip the safety.

[Gary Lewis]

I agree with Jim the whole way - connect the negatives on the MGGi unit and put them to ground and leave the blower motor grounded as it is.  Then use the existing switch/resistor on the output of the MGGi unit so it gets full battery voltage.

[BigBrother-84]

Cory's questions are very interesting.  Jim and Gary, what about the switch position?

There is no specification about the output it delivers, no more about the voltage it is built for.  Just a precision about 10amp rating.
Do we have to assume it is a "normal" 12V vehicle switch?

If so, I am curious about how its position in the circuit will affect the result.  It is not a simple on/off switch, since it delivers low and high "speeds" to the blower. Which current (V? A?) will it deliver if placed before or after the voltage reducer?  What will be the final "low and high" output to the fan?

Another question Cory has is the ground strategy.  I never questioned myself about this, but I always assumed a car body is a 12V electrical circuit, an extension of its negative battery pole.  But Cory made me realize that I could probably make different electrical current (6V, 12V, 120V, 240V) to transit by a same unique metal "ground" piece, and close their own circuit with their own positive pole?

[ArdWrknTrk]

You're referencing to ground in a DC circuit.
If the voltage regulator is claimed by the manufacturer to have no isolation and that both grounds can be bonded, then it makes sense that they both go to chassis.
Having an independent ground -out- is a way to tie an isolated load back to that ground (as would be the case of a motor or other load mounted on plastic)

The switch is 4 position (off, low, medium, high) and appears to be a simple resistor array. (given its ceramic housing)
Obviously off is open circuit and High is close to zero ohms. I couldn't say what 'Low' and 'Medium' are with this switch, but I could tell you what the various ohms (speeds) are for a Ford resistor block.

....Much like the ceramic housing wire-wound potentiometer attached to the back of our headlamp switches that don't have any forced air flow to cool them.

The 6V voltage regulator Cory linked says: 9-35V input and 10A @ 6V (60W) output with: over current, over load, over voltage, over temperature and short circuit protection; auto recovery when device is back to normal operating (parameters)
I expect a simple IC driving a mosfet or other power transistor that requires the aluminum housing to dissipate its losses.
You can't use a transformer with DC, it doesn't work that way.....

[BigBrother-84]

Okay...  I am almost a complete dummy in electrical questions...  Understand by "almost" that I can run wires (ac or dc), install breakers, switches (regular and 3-ways), lights, heating, outlets, the moment it stays simple.
But at the moment you add a resistor in a circuit, or any electronic widgets, I'm lost.

Now let's get back to Cory's fan switch position in the circuit.  I'll use a metaphorical image to explain what's no clear for me (let's assume all DC).
Correct me if I am wrong:
• If I put a 12V bulb in a 120V circuit, it will blow out.
• Reversely, a 120V bulb in a 12V circuit represents a too high resistance, it will glow very yellow (if it glows...).

So, if Cory's switch is made for a 12V input, but is placed between  the voltage reducer and the blower, I suspect its ohms resistance (built to receive 12V input) will be too high, so the output won't be enough to turn the blower at the good speed.  I suppose...

The same way, if this switch is placed before the voltage reducer, is it possible that this reducer will to much lower the power delivered to the blower?

In other words, can a "dimmer switch" be placed in a circuit regardless of the voltage of this latter?  I suspect no...

Thanks for your patience gentlemen!

And Cory, I apologize hacking your thread this way!  But your questions are very interesting!

[ArdWrknTrk]

Nope.
Ohms law V/IR

The resistor has to be rated enough watts (dissipation) to handle what is drawn through it. It doesn't care about voltage or amperage (except at whatever point it's insulation breaks down)
In this case the speed control is rated for 10A and the fan motor draws 10A, the regulator has a rated output of 10A @6V as well.

10A @ 6V is 60 watts.
5A @ 12V is 60 watts
0.5A @ 120V is 60 watts
0.1A @ 600V is 60 watts

This is a big reason that BEV's and grid storage batteries are usually relatively high voltage (6-800V in most current cars)
If you want to speak about AC, look at transmission lines or what voltage industrial equipment runs at.
Smaller cables and motor windings can push the same amount of power (watts) because amperage is the big factor in heating the conductor.

[Gary Lewis]

The switch/resistor is generic in that while it may have been envisioned for a 12V circuit the designers had no way of knowing what motor it would be used with. So placing the switch/resistor in the 6V circuit with a motor that only pulls 10A will probably give the same results as using it in a 12V circuit and a motor that pulls 20A.

But as Jim pointed out, placing it in the 12V circuit ahead of the voltage regulator could easily cause the regulator to quit working as the input voltage gets down close to 6V. However, above that point the fan will still be running at full speed because it is being fed a full 6V. In other words, it won’t work correctly ahead of the regulator.

[ArdWrknTrk]

The regulator is electronic, not linear.
It will provide 6V out from 35v in all the way down to 9V input.
At that point it is 'out of parameters' and the regulator will shut down.... as I pointed out above.

[Rembrant]

Thank you gentlemen for all of the detailed answers. I knew that you guys would know what to do. Thanks for always being so helpful. Wiring this truck from scratch is going to be a bit of a task, but for the most part it will basically be wired up as an 80's pickup with a Duraspark ignition, a 3G alternator conversion and a Quick4 transmission controller, so if I run into any snags, I know where to go for help! Thanks again.

Gary Lewis wrote

So placing the switch/resistor in the 6V circuit with a motor that only pulls 10A will probably give the same results as using it in a 12V circuit and a motor that pulls 20A.

Interesting point you make here Gary, and one I have to ask about out of curiosity. In my searches for information on this blower fan, I found a lengthy discussion on another forum a few weeks ago (Jalopy Journal, I think) where they were going over the options for running this 6v motor in a 12v system.

Apparently some guys just run the motors at 12v. Since these are mostly fair weathered vehicles these days, I doubt anybody runs the heaters very often. The argument was over the amperage. Quite a few people said that if you run the 6v motor with 12v that it will only draw half the amps the motor would draw with 6v. The other half of the people said no way, that it would not only draw the same 10amps the 6v would draw, but that it would draw much more than the 6v.

Anyway, I couldn't find much of an answer at the end of any of these debates, so I just said screw it, I'll run the motor at 6v and not worry about it.

If you're around old cars and trucks or even car shows, etc any length of time, one thing you'll notice is a fairly common occurrence: Fires. I don't want to contribute to that, so I'll try to do the "right thing" wherever possible (and I have a high tolerance for the wrong things by the way...lol).

PS: My brother in law suggested taking the motor to a motor shop and see if they would convert it to 12v for me. It said that it should be fairly simple. I think he said just remove one set of brushes and voila, it's a 6v motor.

[Gary Lewis]

Regarding the motor's voltage, the no-load speed doubles if you double the voltage - assuming the windings don't separate from the armature.  Or, if you double the voltage and the load stays the same the current is cut in half.  The problem is that we don't know what the load does as the speed of the motor increases.

But it is pretty safe to assume that as the speed goes up so does the load.  With some fans doubling the speed increases the load by a factor of 4.  In some you may cause cavitation and there will be little if any flow.  So it isn't true that with twice the voltage the current goes down to half.

As for rewiring the motor, I wish removing a set of brushes would do it.  But since most motors with brushes only have two, removing one set would cut the current and the speed significantly.  

Seriously though, I called around a year or so ago looking for someone that would rewind a Bullnose blower motor to give more air movement.  No one would touch it, with one guy saying it would cost "hundreds of dollars".

[BigBrother-84]

Thanks Gentlemen for your detailed answers.

And thanks Cory to have asked your questions!

This thread is very instructive!

[ArdWrknTrk]

Interesting.

I see this listing for a '52 F1 blower motor and it crosses with 66-70 Jeep CJ 5&6.
https://partshawk.com/four-seasons-35512-hvac-blower-motor-for-ford-f1.html
I'm surprised that there isn't a 12V replacement for them.


Here's a thread at FTE that claims a 12V direct replacement for $27.  https://www.ford-trucks.com/forums/558426-12v-fan-motor-for-48-52-ford-heaters.html

Here's one on Amazon that looks identical:. https://www.amazon.com/Four-Seasons-Trumark-35576-without/dp/B000CNHAK8/ref=asc_df_B000CNHAK8/?tag=hyprod-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=330386922177&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=698069968451738485&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=t&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9003368&hvtargid=pla-679751117689&psc=1

All the specs seem to match the first partshawk listing except it says 12V

Number of Terminals: Connector Not Included
Connection Gender: None
Connector Qty: None
Connector Type: 2 Lead Wires
Description: Blower Motor /Single Shaft
Flanged?: No
Material: Metal
Motor Dia. "IN": 3.000
Motor Length "IN": 3.750
Mount Type: OE Mount
New or Remanufactured: New
Original Equipment Replacement?: Yes
Rotation: CW/CCW
Shaft Dia. "IN": 0.250
Shaft Length "IN": 1.500
Shaft Shape: D-Shaped
Stud Distance "IN": 2.3125
Style: Single Shaft
Type: Blower Motors
Vented?: Non Vented
Voltage: 12
Wheel?: w/o Wheel

[Rembrant]

Excellent finds Jim! I did come across that same thread on FTE, but that blower motor is for what they call the "Non Magic-Air" style heater, and mine IS the Magic Air style. I thought I had read elsewhere that the motors between the two different heaters were indeed different. Now you've got me thinking...I really need to pull mine and measure it up. I would love to find a 12v motor that fits.

Stay tuned for more...I'll pull the motor today or on the weekend and measure all of the dimensions.

Thanks Jim!