OUR NEW NAME AGAIN - PLEASE VOTE!

[Gary Lewis]

I'm staying out of the discussion about which name to use, but I think it is good to get all of the ideas out so people can think about it.  And that seems to be working as I've seen the voting shift as people rethink what they like and change their vote - which you can easily do.  So keep up the discussion, please.

Having said that, I don't see the name as a huge deal.  There are several options that seem to work fairly well and I wanted y'all to have a hand in deciding.  Helping to make decisions like this is part of being a "community".

As for "Bullnose Truck Enthusiast Club", I can't change the poll and I'm loathe to blow this one away and start over.  So let's try this: No one has voted for Bullnose Bible Club, so from now on through the poll a vote for that will be a vote for Bullnose Truck Enthusiast Club.  GO VOTE!

[ratdude747]

Done. Might want to edit the original post?

[ckuske]

Hi Paul,

The simple answer is that the forum software currently being used has been abandoned by the original author. There are features that plain don't work, and we have no recourse to have them fixed. No updates are being made to the forum software or the platform it runs on, and he can turn off our forum at will.  He is letting it stay running because he doesn't care enough to turn it off (yet).

That is a precarious position to be in, we need to ensure we are on a platform where we at least have some measure of assurance that our forum can't disappear on a whim.

[Gary Lewis]

Larry - I can't edit the poll, but might be able to edit the other text if that is what you mean.  But read on before we worry about that.

Chris - Well stated.

All - The paralegal got back with me this morning and they, she and the lawyer, are thinking that we don't qualify for being a 501c7.  Their thinking is:

Voting: Membership in a non-profit brings with it voting rights, and at a minimum the members need to vote to elect the board of directors.  And there needs to be a quorum defined that says how many minimum votes it takes to be a legit election.  In the past they've seen as small as 10% of the membership as the quorum, but she thought we might be able to go as low as 5%.

Putting that in perspective, 2131 members x 5% = 107 votes.  So we'd have to get at least 107 members to vote. And that would be a bit of an issue on Nabble as there really is no emailing function.  Maybe it can be done on InVision?  Or, maybe just the ability to put up a notification would suffice, and we can do that on InVision.  So, if we could wait to do that until after the move maybe it would work.

Exclusive Activities: The whole idea of a "social club" is to socialize and that requires in-person meetings which are exclusive.  I explained that we sorta have that in the meeting on Friday ahead of the truck show, but she wasn't sure that would be enough - especially when I told her that we might only have 10 - 15 members there.

Dues/Fees/Assessments: They are now not sure that contributions are acceptable as the only way of funding a non-profit.  They are one way, but maybe not acceptable as the only way.

They gave me links to two publications to read, and I'm in the midst of doing that.  And then I'm to get back with them via email to explain how I think we comply, assuming I think we do comply.  They'll then review that and let me know if they think it'll work, if we need to make other changes, or just won't fit.

The alternative is that y'all send me money and I keep it separate from our personal funding by establishing a separate bank account.  But all of that money will be taxable to me at ~25%, so the move will cost $2,250 and the annual fee will be more like $1,250.  But we'd not have the $500 fee to set up the non-profit and wouldn't have to have a board of directors, voting, etc.

I would appreciate your thoughts on this.

[Rockhauler]

Chris that makes what's going on with the forum very clear, thanks for that explanation.

Ok Gary changed my vote but I'm ok with whatever name the forum goes with.

Paul

[ratdude747]

Which is why I was thinking 501c3 was perhaps a better fit.

Per the IRS:

https://www.irs.gov/charities-non-profits/charitable-organizations/exempt-purposes-internal-revenue-code-section-501c3

The exempt purposes set forth in section 501(c)(3) are charitable, religious, educational, scientific, literary, testing for public safety, fostering national or international amateur sports competition, and preventing cruelty to children or animals. The term charitable is used in its generally accepted legal sense and includes relief of the poor, the distressed, or the underprivileged; advancement of religion; advancement of education or science; erecting or maintaining public buildings, monuments, or works; lessening the burdens of government; lessening neighborhood tensions; eliminating prejudice and discrimination; defending human and civil rights secured by law; and combating community deterioration and juvenile delinquency.

From what I'm reading, the site likely falls under educational purposes. None of it is commercial (you're not trying to inure yourself)... and at least according to Texas, online forums do count:

https://texassecretaryofstate.com/what-constitutes-charitable-educational-or-literary-purposes/

Educational Purposes — Educational purposes under the Internal Revenue Code include instruction of the public on subjects useful to individuals for the benefit of the community and for self-development. The Internal Revenue Service (“IRS”) will generally find that a curriculum is educational if, when presenting particular viewpoints, the curriculum provides a sufficiently full and fair exposition of pertinent facts to permit an individual or the public to form an independent opinion or conclusion. However, mere presentation of unsupported opinion is not considered educational. Some examples of educational purposes include: publishing public interest educational materials that do not conflict with the  requirements above; conducting public discussion groups, forums, panels, lectures, or workshops; offering a correspondence course or one that uses other media such as television or radio; operating a museum, zoo, planetarium, symphony orchestra, or other performance groups; serving an educational institution, such as a college bookstore, alumni association, or athletic organization; and publishing educational newsletters, pamphlets, books, or other material.

[Gary Lewis]

Larry - I've asked them if 501c3 might be an option.  We shall see.

[Gary Lewis]

And the reply came right back: "The closest fit would be c/7 – it would not meet the operational test required to be a c/3."  That's after I'd sent this as background info:

Website: https://www.garysgaragemahal.com

Forum: The first page of that website is a forum where we ask & answer questions about the 1980 - 86 Ford trucks, show off what we've done, and pat each other on the back.  While the forum is visible to anyone on the internet you have to be a member in order to post on it.  We allow anyone to be a member, even if they don't have one of these trucks, and as of today we have 2131 members from Poland on the east to Australia on the west.

Library: The other pages of the website are, for the most part, our library of technical information.  We use it to answer questions for the members.  It has come about because I've purchased and have been given a huge quantity of Ford documentation and have scanned much of it and put it on the website.  There are about 1000 webpages (I added 4 yesterday) and each page may contain multiple documents, some of which are over 100 pages long, so it is a large library.  It is available to anyone on the internet, not just members, but it allows us to definitively answer questions on the forum since I'm the curator and know where to find the needed document.  (It is arranged logically - my logic.  😎)  But to be honest, it is used by a wide range of Ford guys, from those on Ford Truck Enthusiasts forum, Full Size Broncos forum, and the 20 or so Facebook pages on these trucks - which easily have over 200,000 members.  It is the Bullnose Bible.

Meetings: We have an annual Ford truck show in Skiatook, which is open to the public, and the night before we have a meeting of the members that have come.  But we don't have that many members actually come, and last year there were only eight.  Having said that, many of our members interact daily with each other posting questions, answering them, providing encouragement, telling how they've used their truck today, etc.  I'm not sure that qualifies for "personal contact", but in this on-line environment it should.

Funding: To this point my wife and I've funded everything for the last seven years, including the dinner for the annual show, the trophies, the website, etc.  The website has cost around $250/year, the dinner about the same, and the trophies maybe $75.  So there have been no fees, assessments, etc.  However, now our free forum platform is about to go away and we need to move to something viable for the long haul, and the costs are going to be $1800 one-time, assuming no legal fees, and $1000 per year for the platform.

We have not had fees of any kind, nor do we have a way to assess them.  There is currently no mechanism to send an email to each member, and some of them haven't been on in years.  (Life happens, they sell their truck, etc.)  So our plan has been to fund everything via contributions.  And I have commitments to cover both the migration as well as the annual fees.

Voting: Heretofore we've not had much, if any, voting.  Right now I have a poll up to see what we want to call our new entity, assuming that we'll actually have one, and we've had 20 votes in 24 hours.  So if we have to vote in a board of directors election we'll have an issue getting many voters.  As said, the current forum platform doesn't allow emailing, and it doesn't allow for a banner.  But the new platform at least allows for a banner so we could use it to call attention to the need to vote - but only when the members log on.  So we might struggle to get 100 votes in a week's time.

Given the above, do you think we qualify?  If not, what are our options?  I'm thinking that I just need to set up a separate bank account and pay taxes on all contributions.  Is that the best approach?

[BigBrother-84]

Hello, here's the Dummy.  I'm lost.

Gary Lewis wrote

The paralegal got back with me this morning and they, she and the lawyer, are thinking that we don't qualify for being a 501c7.

Gary Lewis wrote

And the reply came right back: "The closest fit would be c/7 – it would not meet the operational test required to be a c/3."

To Qualify c/7 or Not To Qualify c/7, this is The Question.

[Gary Lewis]

You aren't a dummy, Jeff.  It is confusing, for sure.

When I talked with the lady this morning she'd talked with the lawyer and he'd advised that he doesn't think we qualify as a c/7.  I asked a lot of questions and provided more info and she seemed to start questioning his decision.

So I put together the info shown above and sent it to her, to which she responded:

Thank you for the information, I will share it with Mr. Haney.

The closest fit would be c/7 – it would not meet the operational test required to be a c/3.

I’ll be in touch once Mr. Haney has a recommendation.

[C.Jett]

Gary, it seems to me that the members are the biggest problem. 20 votes??? There’s got to be a way to contact members! You confirmed to me that you have paid all expenses all these years. It’s time the members carry the  load. Form an Okla. corporation or LLC and be done with it. Charge members dues and ask for a donation. Hopefully there is enough active members to answer the call. Come on guys the guy that has given so much needs your help !!!  CJ

[Ford F834]

Gary Lewis wrote

No one has voted for Bullnose Bible Club, so from now on through the poll a vote for that will be a vote for Bullnose Truck Enthusiast Club.  GO VOTE!

I actually held off voting at first, because all of the choices seemed a bit awkward. I like this one, I just worry the poll won’t give it a fair shake since the actual name being voted for is buried in the comments. I am, in fact, not a fan of any of the Bible reference names.

[Gary Lewis]

CJ - Thanks, but the farther I get into this the more I realize that the main issue is taxes.  Here are the options I see:

1. No 501C7, just a separate bank account and pay the taxes.  So we'll need to have 25% more in contributions but we save the $500 lawyer fee.  And we don't have to have annual meetings, file any special paperwork, etc.  Initially the $1800 for migration will have to be $2250 to cover the taxes.  And ongoing the $1000 annually will need to be $1250.

2. OK 501C7, if we meet the standards, and then federal tax relief.  Saves us the 25% but costs us $500 up front in lawyers fees.  So the up-front one-time cost is $1800 + $500 = $2300.  And the annual costs are expected to be $1000.

So the up-front fees are a wash at $2250 - 2300.  The difference is in the annual costs of $1000 vs $1250.  And even that's not too hard to cover.

Let's wait and see what the lawyer says, maybe next week.  At least we will have a definitive answer and we can make a decision based on facts.

[Nothing Special]

As I said before, I'm no expert!  But it doesn't seem obvious to me that you would need to pay taxes on whatever money comes in.  If the funding is set up as voluntary contributions rather than a fee charged, isn't that a lot like gifts?  And gifts aren't taxable up to a certain limit that's WELL above anything we're talking about here.

And if the fact that they are contributions rather than charged dues makes a difference on whether this qualifies as a 501(c)(7), then it makes sense that it would make a difference on whether or not you would be taxed on it.

Definitely don't go off my word, but it might be a question to ask the experts.

[Gary Lewis]

Bob - Good point. I’ll check with my tax consultant.

[BigBrother-84]

I CHANGED MY VOTE !!

I finally chose to vote for «Bullnose Truck Enthusiast Club».

Gary Lewis wrote

No one has voted for Bullnose Bible Club, so from now on through the poll a vote for that will be a vote for Bullnose Truck Enthusiast Club.

But, if this choice happens to win, we’ll probably need a second round polling, in order to decide who’s gonna be THE enthusiast… or to add an “s”.

[Gary Lewis]

BigBrother-84 wrote

I CHANGED MY VOTE !!

I finally chose to vote for «Bullnose Truck Enthusiast Club».

Gary Lewis wrote

No one has voted for Bullnose Bible Club, so from now on through the poll a vote for that will be a vote for Bullnose Truck Enthusiast Club.

But, if this choice happens to win, we’ll probably need a second round polling, in order to decide who’s gonna be THE enthusiast… or to add an “s”.

Funny man!  

[C.Jett]

Paul, I like it, Bullnose Truck Enthusiasts Club, this is coming from a one finger typist. CJ

[Rockhauler]

C.Jett your not the only 1 finger typer out there. As for the name Bullnose Truck Enthusiasts Club I simply combine the posts of yours, Ratdude, and Bob and Kurt's posts so if it wins the credit goes to the 4 of you.

Jeff no vote needed for who the enthusiast is that would be Gary hands down.

Paul  

[BigBrother-84]

Rockhauler wrote

Jeff no vote needed for who the enthusiast is that would be Gary hands down.

Ok, so voting «Bullnose Truck Enthusiast Club» is in fact voting Gary’s Club!

Nice try, it was subtil but sorry, you’re caught Gary.