New Tires For Big Blue

[Nothing Special]

I did see a small but noticeable improvement in gas mileage when I switched from the BFG A/Ts to Michelin Agilis.  But the Michelins are a street tire, so that's not surprising.  If you are looking for an on/off road tire A/Ts are the right place to be looking.  I don't really need that on my pickup, which is another factor in my not wanting the KO2s, which really isn't a dig against them.  They just aren't a fit for me.

[Nothing Special]

And thinking about that last part more, that might be a good way to look at how my opinion of the BFG A/T KO2 fits with everyone elses.  The KO2 is certainly one of the best A/T tires out there.  But I don't need an A/T tire.

On my pickup I need a good load range E street tire that's good on snow and ice and not incapable on wet dirt.  Prior to the KO2 version, the BFG A/Ts were a good option for me, but I feel like the KO2 is a significantly less good street tire than its predecessors.  It still might be one of the best A/Ts on the street, but it's not good enough for me to move to an A/T from an all-season.

On my Bronco I need good off-road tires and at least decent on-road tires.  KO2s could be a fit there.  But in my last iteration I'm not trying to do both with one tire.  I was running 10.5/33-15 KO2s all the time as a decent compromise, but now I'm running a 12.50/33-15 M/T off road and soon I'll be switching to a 235/85-15 all season tire for on road.  I think that will be a good solution for me as I am usually driving to Dairy Queen and only occasionally on trails.  Switching tires for my one or two trail trips per year isn't a big deal.  So there's no reason for me to use an A/T tire on the Bronco either.

I still think that the KO2 isn't a quiet tire on the street.  But it's definitely quieter than most (all?) M/Ts.  I don't know where it fits with currently available A/Ts because I don't have experience with any others.  But in my experience it is louder than the earlier BFG A/Ts, so it wouldn't surprise me if there are quieter A/Ts out there now.

[Gary Lewis]

Bob - Good observations.  There are differing situations in which the vehicles are used, and those situations should help determine which tire is best.  (I emphasized "should" as I doubt that the vast majority of the people running A/T tires actually need them as their mall-crawlers never leave the pavement.  Instead, they want the look of the aggressive tire.)

In your case you don't really need an A/T tire, much less an aggressive one like the K02, so it isn't a good fit for you.  In my case I think an aggressive A/T tire is exactly what I do need since I will drive on the highway to get where I am going offroading, but sure don't want to get stuck when I do leave the road.

This discussion is helping me get my head around "tires", and I appreciate it.  So let me try to state what I think I'm learning:

As it turns out, within the A/T category itself there are large variations in design, as we've seen with the K02's vs the Yokohama A/T G015.  The K02 is obviously a more aggressive tire than the G015, and that probably explains why in the "review" on TireWheelGuide the G015 is a little quieter than the K02 but the latter is much better offroad.  (That site has links for many different "reviews", using the term lightly, of both of those tires vs other tires, so is a good place to start research.)

But there are other micro-categories within the A/T tires, like On-/Off-Road Commercial Traction for my current Cooper S/T Maxx tires.  And looking at the specs I see that my tires are 62 lbs each while the same sized K02's or the Falken A/T3W's are 59 lbs.  So that extra 3 lbs may make a difference in both ride and MPG.  

And then there are the subjective owner's ratings on Tire Rack, which are questionable in my book since they are just opinions w/o quantitative testing.  But the owners rate the Maxx at 7.1 on ride quality and 6.7 on noise while the K02 owners rate them at 8.5 and 8.2.  And the Falken owners rate them at 8.9 and 8.3 respectively.  Since it isn't likely that the same person owns both tires, much less all three, I wouldn't put much faith in minor differences.  But the difference between a 6.7 and an 8.2 is significant, so I expect that a K02 or an A/T3W is noticeably quieter than the tires I have - especially since the tires I have are scalloped and have chunks missing.

Oddly enough, the owners of the Yokohama Geolandar M/T G003's rate them as a 8.8 for ride quality and an 8.2 for noise.  So using those numbers you'd expect that the G003's would ride better and create the same noise as the K02's.  But I suspect that those people are comparing those tires to other M/T tires they've owned, so you probably shouldn't compare ratings between categories.

[Rusty_S85]

Gary Lewis wrote

Rusty - I do get rocks stuck in the Coopers, so I'm glad to see the KO2's don't seem to do that.  

And I wasn't aware there are two different, but similar, KO2's.  However I'll be going with the LT285/75R16's, which are 33", so that shouldn't be an issue.

John - I've not ruled out the Falken, but now realize that the way I was searching didn't really include it.  So I'll do some more searching to see what I find.

Looking at Tire Rack's data in my spreadsheet the Falken didn't do quite as well as the K02 in most categories, but bested the K02 in both G-Force dry and wet.  Also, I note that at Tire Rack it cost $32/tire more than the K02.

As for MPG, only one of the several-tire tests that Tire Rack did includes MPG, and it didn't include the Falken.  So I can't compare the K02 to the Falken.  But here's what they said about the group that includes the K02:

Yep the P-Metric and the LT rated tires they would be a little different in shape than the old measurements like mine 31x10.50-15.  It was odd that they did that but I had a guy at work he has KO2s on his diesel truck they are roughly the same heigth 31" as mine but his was the LT I think version and the knobs on the shoulder didnt look as aggressive as the knobs on mine.  I could never get BFG to give me an answer why the 31x10.50-15 KO2s look different than the other sizes of the same/similar dimensions.  I dont think it changes the performance any of the tire, it just when you look at them side by side they just dont look the same even if they are of similar dimensions.

You and everyone else might not notice something like that but for me its something my eyes picked up on cause it caught my attention.

[Rusty_S85]

Nothing Special wrote

And thinking about that last part more, that might be a good way to look at how my opinion of the BFG A/T KO2 fits with everyone elses.  The KO2 is certainly one of the best A/T tires out there.  But I don't need an A/T tire.

On my pickup I need a good load range E street tire that's good on snow and ice and not incapable on wet dirt.  Prior to the KO2 version, the BFG A/Ts were a good option for me, but I feel like the KO2 is a significantly less good street tire than its predecessors.  It still might be one of the best A/Ts on the street, but it's not good enough for me to move to an A/T from an all-season.

On my Bronco I need good off-road tires and at least decent on-road tires.  KO2s could be a fit there.  But in my last iteration I'm not trying to do both with one tire.  I was running 10.5/33-15 KO2s all the time as a decent compromise, but now I'm running a 12.50/33-15 M/T off road and soon I'll be switching to a 235/85-15 all season tire for on road.  I think that will be a good solution for me as I am usually driving to Dairy Queen and only occasionally on trails.  Switching tires for my one or two trail trips per year isn't a big deal.  So there's no reason for me to use an A/T tire on the Bronco either.

I still think that the KO2 isn't a quiet tire on the street.  But it's definitely quieter than most (all?) M/Ts.  I don't know where it fits with currently available A/Ts because I don't have experience with any others.  But in my experience it is louder than the earlier BFG A/Ts, so it wouldn't surprise me if there are quieter A/Ts out there now.

Its like the KO1s the previous version of the A/Ts, they were great they were an A/T tire but they discontinued it for the KO2 with its knobbier shoulders for improved off road traction and while they still look good, it caused an issue I never had before with my tires and that is at lock the shoulder rubs my suspension arm.  Never did it with 31x10.50-15 KO1s, never did it with 31x10.50-15 Discount brand Pathfinders.  But threw on the 31x10.50-15 KO2s and at lock they rub the suspension and the knobs at slow enough speed will lock the tire up so it greatly reduced my swb turning radius that I had with previous tires.  If I could get the KO1s I would go with it, but when I go to replace the KO2s in a couple years when they hit 7 years old I dont know if I will go back with them even though I think they are great tires.  I just dont like how I cant turn lock to lock on my truck because of those stupid shoulder knobs.

[mat in tn]

the only comment I can or would dare offer would be from my own personal experience.
 I had bfg ko2 on my lifted van. they were sure footed and firm riding and did well on the highway, but I could hear them for sure. I could not say about off road performance because it was just a two-wheel drive and I only had it for a year before moving it on.
 the second that i had the bfg ko2 on was my expedition. 265/75/17. i just replaced them a few weeks back because i could not stand the noise anymore. I'm actually sorry to my wife for not replacing them sooner since she drives it the most. I rarely go off the pavement in it unless we are crossing grass to get to a campsite etc. it's not a woods truck.
I do have the Falken Wild peak at3 on bubba. 32/11.5/15. on 10" wheels. it's a lifted 2wd with a "tight" trac loc. I go anywhere I want to go but I don't go mudding or rock crawling without 4wd. they are the quietest at tires I have ever known, and this is my second set. drive is great. ride is great. wet or dry traction is great. if I spin, I'm trying to, or I am empty giving no grip. traction does require force against force after all.

[ArdWrknTrk]

I'm not going to have any input Gary, but I'm following along to see what's said.
I have some mismatched tires now since I needed a clean pair for the front when I had it rebuilt and aligned.

My use case is probably 97% street but we do have to deal with snow and ice in winter.
The path to the paddock is rutted and can get muddy, as can job sites.

So I have a pair of remoulded Treadwright's on the rear and some Khumo AT51's on the front in stock 235/85 size.
Definitely not premium tires but they seem to suit my needs and wallet.
I was happy with the Treadwright's but couldn't get another pair when I needed them.

[Gary Lewis]

Thanks, Rusty.  

And thanks, Matt.  Good info about the K02's being noisy and the Falkens quiet.  To get that info from one person is very helpful.  Oddly enough that doesn't fit with some of what I am reading, but I know you and don't know them so believe you more than them.

Jim - Glad you are following along.  If you see me go off the reservation please let me know.

I've done a bit more reading about the K02 vs the Falken AT3W.  And it is CONFUSING!!!!!  Man, people have their opinions and want to share them.  Reading about these tires on other forums is like looking in your email spam folder.    I'm sure glad you guys are civil and share your experiences in a humble way.

I'm still taking input, so please keep it coming.  But I found a couple of places that seem to have reasonable information:

CompareTheTire: Overall this seems to favor the Falken, with the only downsides being that it doesn't have stone ejectors and, due to the higher void ratio will produce more sound.

Blackcircles Canada: This was done in Feb of this year and it does have the AT3W.  But it doesn't say a lot save for: "Both offer good traction on paved roads, but the Falken Wildpeak AT3W delivers a less comfortable ride. It is noisier and does not absorb road vibrations. The BF Goodrich KO2 offers better overall comfort on paved roads."

[ArdWrknTrk]

I think you've got things well in hand Gary.  
Do you also go looking to see how the Coopers you have now are compared to the tires you're contemplating?

I don't really give too much weight to individuals opinions online.
They often don't have any experience with comparable items or are parroting some advertising hype.
I'm sure that some DO know what they're talking about but it's often lost in the background noise.

If you want some acrimony bordering on politics and religion perhaps you should start an oil thread???

[mat in tn]

of course, there are other variables that must be factored in yet are way too often overlooked or even ignored. not everyone writing a review is aware or even recognizes the affect of proper geometry and alignment, or shocks. we all tend to take these for granted now and then. once any of these allows irregular wear the noises can show up and then take a very long time to "wear in" to the point of cleaning up, if they ever do. I have seen a bad component need to get replaced and tire wear was a result which caused a roar and it never cleared up. I know these are known potential issues but many who are writing reviews may be only aware of their new tire purchases and may not be mechanically savvy.  

[Gary Lewis]

I found what appeared to be a very good conversation about the K02's and AT3W's at Expedition Portal.  Then it all went south on the 2nd page.  

I don't want us to have those problems, Jim, so I'll stay away from discussing oil.  

As for the Coopers I'm running, I did find this thread on Expedition Portal about the Maxx vs K02's.  There are interesting things said there:

The Cooper ST-MAXXs are much more aggressive tires - a hybrid all terrain/mud terrain tire, while the BFG KO2s are just an all-terrain tire. A more direct competitor to the KO2 would be Cooper's Discoverer AT3 which solidly outperforms the BFG KOs. While I've had many sets of KOs, I do not have any experience with the KO2s; with that said, I find the ST-MAXX to be superior on-road (although more tire hum while cornering, due to the MAXX's mud-terrain-like shoulder lugs) and world's better off-road than the KOs ever were. Cooper really nailed it with their magical rubber compound that simply doesn't care how wet the asphalt is, and their engineers somehow managed to make this aggressive tire so quiet. The ST-MAXXs also provide much deeper tread which enhances off-road traction and of course gives a longer life. The KO2s are undoubtedly upgraded over the KOs, so I'm dying to see a comparison between them and the current benchmark, the AT3s. However, I wanted a more offroad-oriented tire so I chose the ST-MAXXs.

CR, I have a ST Maxx on my Dodge 2500, my son has KO2s on his second gen 1500 and my wife has AT3 on her Grand Cherokee. The KO2 is way more aggressive than the AT3. They are not comparative tires. The ST Maxx clears a little better in sticky mud than the KO2. Both ST Maxx and KO2 are good in snow and slush. AT3 is good in snow, not real good in mud.
So, based on your info on the application, your best choices will between the ST Maxx and KO2. We really like both tires and the performance is really close. My son and I wheel together, the trucks are essentially the same- open diffs factory gearing, 2 in leveling kit, exact same tire size 285s, and we go at the same time. There is no discernible performance difference. Both tires perform very well with surprisingly similar characteristics.

There's been a number of threads about the Cooper ST Maxx and I've posted on a few of them how much I liked the tire over the BFG ATs and the BFG Mud Terrains based on how they wore (chunking) and performed while off-roading on my pig big. I run the 315 x 70x 17 and they had about 9K miles on them. That said, I went out to meet some friends in Parker, AZ to run a few trails and enjoy the weekend. I drove my usual 80 mph for about 350 miles from southern Cal, arrived and called it a night. The next morning I did a walk around the vehicle as I do each time before I go off-roading. I'm sure glad I didn't forget as I noticed in three of the four tires severe cracking of the rubber about a quarter inch from where the tire meets the rim. The cracking was pretty deep and I became alarmed after the long trip at high speed in a giant truck. Don't know how it happened but didn't notice before the drive. I bowed out of the morning run and ran up to Havasu to have the tires inspected. We un-mounted them and did the ole' pull up from the inside of the tire and lift. Sure enough, those cracks were very deep. Not sure what may have caused them but they didn't have any Coopers in stock and I wasn't going to lose the weekend to bad tires. I made a decision to buy a new set and the only ones they had four of were the new K02's. Put em on and drove back to Parker. My wife, who was with me, immediately noticed how much smoother and quitter these tires were and I tended to agree but of course they aren't as aggressive. They also handled better on pavement. I was a little worried about them because I chunked up the original BFG AT's that came with the truck and I knew I'd be wheeling in steep and very rocky terrain where I thought this may happen again. I'll tell you the new AT's did a great job with zero chunking. I even had to strap tow an early 70's FJ about 12 miles through loose and steep terrain with many sharp turns. Tires performed very well. Any way, thought I'd share a seat of the pants story that just happened as its an applicable comparison.

I find the statement in the first bullet about the quietness of the Maxx tires odd since the Tire Rack info shows them to be much more noisy than the K02's or, for that matter, about anything else in that category.  So I was pleased when later in the thread there was the 3rd statement that says the K02's were quieter than the Maxx tires on the same vehicle driven by the same people.

My Coopers have massive balance weights on them, as has been discussed in many posts.  And that seems to be fairly common with these tires.  Very heavy and not well balanced.  Fortunately both the K02's and A/T3W's are said to be easy to balance.

So I plan to move away from the Maxx tires.

[ArdWrknTrk]

I knew you were ditching the ST MAXX but wondered if meaningful comparisons made with them would give you some idea what to expect from other tires you might mount on Big Blue.

Do you plan to buy five, and keep the spare in rotation?

[Gary Lewis]

Matt - I missed your post as I was typing.  But you are right, I don't think many of those posting are aware of or care about the other issues.  That's why I was pleased to find that post about the guy replacing the Maxx tires with the K02's.  Nothing changed, so that should have been a fair comparison - although the original tires may have flat-spotted due to problems previously, and that would make a difference in noise.  (Which may well be the case with Big Blue.)

[Gary Lewis]

Yes, I think those comparisons are telling me - the Coopers are noisy.

As for the spare, the Cooper is in good shape so I'm thinking about buying only 4 and rotating just them.  Thoughts?

Another approach would be to buy another wheel and tire so I have two spares.  But I don't really think I need that if I have a good patch kit and the air compressor.

[grumpin]

This is interesting.

Seems the one way to tell if you like them is to buy them and drive them.

I think the KO2’s are quiet. I have Coopers (I think Discoverers), on my Xterra and the GMC. I hear them a little in the Xterra, but a lot in my GMC. To the point I was worried about the front bearings.

I had BFG Terrain Trail or something like that on the Xterra. Couldn’t get KO2’s in that size, and there’s not room without modification for bigger tires.

I opted for the Coopers this go around. The BFG’s wore well but I think that contributed to them not doing as well in ice and snow. The Coopers have done well in ice and snow, but I’ll probably try something else next time.

[grumpin]

My thinking is, if you have two spares you’ll never need one. If you have one spare you’ll need three!

[ArdWrknTrk]

I was just wondering.
I know your tires aren't that old.
I like to keep an eye on my undermount spare and swap it out periodically.
I'm sure it doesn't match.

[Nothing Special]

grumpin wrote

....  Seems the one way to tell if you like them is to buy them and drive them....

... for a long time.  When I got my KO2s in 2016 I posted on FTE:

That was all a few weeks ago, so now with over 1000 miles on it I can report on the KO2s. I have kind of mixed feelings about them. I don't like the looks of them nearly as much as the older BFGs. The heavy tread extending up the sidewall is "hip" now, but I really don't care for it. Also the truck now pulls back and forth with road grooves. I haven't had that happen with any truck with BFGs before. On the plus side they're as quiet as I expected and they're GREAT in snowy roads. I'll definitely keep them until they wear out, but the jury is still out on whether I'll go back to them when these need replacing.

Then 4 1/2 years later I posted:

That's what I thought of the BFG All-Terrian KO2s after 1000 miles back in 2016 when I had just bought them. Now it was time to replace them and the jury came back with a verdict of guilty. Up to this point every tire I've bought for any of my trucks (including a CJ5 and me early Bronco) has been BFG. 9 sets of ATs and 3 sets of MTs. That streak is over. I don't like the KO2s. I never got to like the more aggressive look of the tread extending way up the sidewalls, the "tracking" with road grooves didn't improve, and they didn't stay quiet. They developed a whine that was getting pretty annoying.

(not meaning to try to trump any one.  I just thought about the fact that I did post on the tires when it was fresh in my mind and thought that might be useful.

[Gary Lewis]

Dane - There are several Cooper Discoverer tires in my size of LT285/75R16: Discoverer AT3 XLT called an On-/Off-Road All-Terrain; Discoverer S/T MAXX called an On-/Off-Road Commercial Traction; & Discoverer STT PRO called an Off-Road Maximum Traction.  And then there's the Evolution M/T that's also called an Off-Road Maximum Traction.  You can see them here.

As for a spare or two, I have a second spare tire on what is likely to be the original spare wheel.  Although it is a narrow tire I think it is the same diameter as the ones I have on the truck so would make a reasonable 2nd spare.  The tire itself seems ok as it was under the truck and didn't see much UV.  I'll check to see if it is thin enough to sit on top of the existing spare in the bed and still have the cover close.  If so it won't take up much room, although I doubt the HiLift jack would fit on top of the two under the cover, so I'd have to figure something out for it.

[Gary Lewis]

That is useful, Bob.  Especially the part about "They developed a whine that was getting pretty annoying."  That would certainly upset me.

On the road groove issue, I'm sure you played with tire pressures.  I ask because I remember so very well a 1980 Chevy Citation X11 we bought new.  It had wide tires and on I-70 headed to Colorado I had to constantly fight it as it did NOT play nicely with the grooves.  Turned out that raising the tire pressure a few pounds above the recommended level fixed that as it got the center of the tire carrying more of the load instead of the edges.  But I'll bet you tried that and it didn't work.

One thing that I read a lot about the K02s is that they are poor in the wet.  In fact, apparently my son read the same thing as when I told him that I'm considering the K02s that was the first thing he said.  Given that, if I were to buy today I think I'd go with the Falken WildPeak A/T3W's.  They are a little bit better in the wet than the K02's are, as shown in the excerpt from the spreadsheet below.  So I can tell him I listened.  


Manufacturer BF Goodrich   Falken
Tire               BFG T/A KO2 WildPeak A/T3W
Road Ride
Ride Quality     6.86              6.63
Noise               7.05             6.75
Steering           7.07             6.63
Overall Road     6.99             6.67
               
Wet Test Track
Braking             6.63            6.50
Steering            6.60            6.00
Cornering          6.24            6.50
Handling           6.32            6.00
Overall Rating   6.45            6.25
               
Stopping - Dry 100.30           99.70
Stopping - Wet 148.50         135.20
G-Force - Dry   0.69              0.79
G-Force - Wet   0.50              0.60