New Guy here, anyone seen my paddle

[kramttocs]

Are you wanting to go back to the stock setup and get rid of the aftermarket pump?
If keeping it is an option, can you see what kind of fuel pressure you are getting at the carb?

[Gary Lewis]

kramttocs wrote

Gary - do you happen to have 84-24-14?
I don't see it on the TSB index page.

Duh!  

I put it up on a new tab on Documentation/Fuel Systems/460 Fuel Systems.  But that page needs some organizational help as it is just getting things clagged on.  Any volunteers?

[26ftcobraBBF]

I would like to go to back to stock. Then eventually make modifications as I see fit vursus trying to figure it out down the road, (literally). Unless there's as better option to that makes more sense for this particular setup. I'd like to drop the tanks to get a look at the condition their in anyhow and replace hoses. My Onan gen. pulls has from the front tank and what amount of hose I could get to recently to replace was in bad shape . Also my fuel guage don't work on the front tank.  I'd like to repair that as well.

[ArdWrknTrk]

In the first post, you said the gauge wasn't working on the front tank.    
I'm confused......

My truck sucks all the way to the timing case, behind the power steering pump.
It works just fine as long as you don't have a pinhole to let air in.

I've trouble shoot more than a few of these HFH systems.

What model Holley do you have there?
Honestly, it seems more like your secondaries aren't opening.

[26ftcobraBBF]

Yes sir, to be specific, the guage only works on the rear tank. When switched to the front tank the guage goes to  "E" regardless of how much fuel is in it.

The Carb, it a brand new Holley street warrior P/N 0-80457s (electric choke). Maybe 300 miles on it.
This is the carb that Holley Tech support recommend for the Cobra.

[ArdWrknTrk]

Ok, I'm sorry, I misunderstood the first post in this thread.  
Your sender could be open, or it could be as simple as the float has sunk on the end of the arm.
You'd have to take it out to see if the gauge or resistance changes when you move the arm up and down.

That's a good carburetor for these trucks.
I used one for probably seven years without any major problems.
It did come with the clutch screws in the secondary plate loose.
This kept the float from returning and hydrolocked my engine when I first installed it.
So check that rear bowl is able to get fuel.

If you think you are running short of fuel you should jumper the oil pressure safety and test for volume.
Disconnect the carb line from the tee, use another piece of *hose to lead into a container.
A 2 litre soda bottle gives plenty of room to splash and PET isn't immediately affected by petroleum.

Get in the cab with your stopwatch and turn the key to run for 15 seconds.
What you are trying to determine is how much fuel per minute, but you probably don't want a quart of gasoline hanging around uncovered.

You have to measure exactly how much fuel you got, before a bunch evaporates.
I use my Ratio Rite 2 cycle beaker but you could pick up a plastic measuring cup at the dollar store.

[26ftcobraBBF]

Ok I'll try that with the fuel volume. Couple questions... When you say the Tee, are you talking about the vapor seperator? Upstream or down stream of that? How much fuel should I have in my measuring cup in 15 seconds?
The oil pressure sending unit won't need to be jumpered... Remember I said Jerry was working on this before I got hands on it??? Yea.... Well ... Currently my electric fuel pump is ran off a piece of romex thats pushed into the heater blower motor circuit on one side of the fuse in the fuse box.

[ArdWrknTrk]

You can see that you should have a quart in 15 seconds (60 gallons an hour) if you follow the link to Gary's Hot Fuel Handling page in the documentation section and open the rightmost tab.

You really should get rid of Jerry's wiring.
Do you have a selector valve to deal with?
Power should come from the inertia switch in the passenger kick panel to a relay by the driver's side hood hinge.
The relay is pulled closed by a circuit that is switched by the oil pressure switch.
Additionally, the oil pressure switch is bypassed with a wire that runs directly to the fuel pump relay while the starter is engaged.
This is so the pump will prime the system before oil pressure builds.

I know it may seem complex, but it is safe, and works well if not screwed up by some hack.

[26ftcobraBBF]

I GOT SOME NUMBERS!!
Fuel volume just after the pump on the frame rail I got 10 oz in15 seconds.

Fuel volume at the engine just after the pressure regulator/Vapor return I got 6 oz in 15 seconds....

Not enough.... So why? Pump bad? Or is it having to pull through an in tank pump that's not working?

I would like to hear more about the sequence of events sort of speak when you turn the key on till power is at the original in tank pump.
I went and bought me a Power Probe... If like to make it simple figure out which color wire is the hot wire on each of the fuel pumps, and put power to it through the probe and listen to see if I hear it.

[Gary Lewis]

I don't know what #'s you should be getting, so I'll let Jim speak to that.

But, for an overview of how the system works as well as some troubleshooting tips you should read TSB 84-24-14.  It is on the tab named that on the page at Documentation/Fuel Systems/460 Fuel Systems.

[ArdWrknTrk]

This is page 37 of the TSB, or page 12 of the document you've posted.
NOTE: that bold lettering in the right column?
" a quart in 15 seconds" or a gallon a minute, 60 GPH minimum....



Could be the sock in the bottom of the tank is full of rust.  (Gary can attest to that)
It could be the pump you have just can't suck hard enough.
But there are a world of pumps out there.....

If you want to go back to stock we can help you with schematics and diagrams.

[ArdWrknTrk]

We have the truck EVTM's here on the website.
E-Series should be very similar, but obviously not identical for things like ground and component locations.
Ford was good about keeping wire colours consistent across lines, models and years.

http://www.garysgaragemahal.com/electric-fuel-pump-control.html

You want pgs. 105, 106 & 107 of the above link

[Gary Lewis]

Well spotted, Jim.  I missed that.  So he gets 10 ounces and should get 32.  No wonder it falls on its face.

And you are right about wire colors.  But don't miss that TSB 84-24-14 is for "1983-85 E350 CUT-AWAY MODELS", so the wiring and component locations should be correct.

As for troubleshooting, some people put air pressure back through the line to blow the sock off.  But I'd pull the sending unit and inspect the sock because I wouldn't want all of the "stuff" in the tank to be going through the pump.

But, if the tank is full of "stuff" I'd probably pull the tank and replace it - assuming that the correct tank is available, and that would need to be determined.

[ArdWrknTrk]

After seeing the amount of rust when you cut open the filter of your FDM, I can't imagine that is good for any type of pump.

While I do think having the pump in the bottom of the tank is best, from both a priming and cooling perspective.

Blowing the sock off can also inadvertently blow the pump off the delivery tube.
(we saw that not long ago with Christian, or Andre in Amsterdam  I believe)

I meant to say that idk if the inertia switch and fuel pump relay are in the same locations as in pickups.
Those spaces seem very different in vans.

Bob or Cory may have a lot more of these details because they have these campers.

[Gary Lewis]

Yes, the amount of rust in that sock was amazing.  And I sure wouldn't want it to go through my pump.

At the price of a tank, around $100 for the pickups but unknown for the vans/campers, I would replace it if I could.  Any rust that's in the tank probably came from the tank itself, so it is just a matter of time before you have a lot more.

[26ftcobraBBF]

 Well, I made a little headway today, these are my findings of the midship tank.
Pump looks inoperable, sender float appears to be a sinker. The inside of the tank looked better than I expected.
Any recommendations on best course of action to clean the tank?
Also recommendations on where to buy replacement parts? I noticed some of the aftermarket sender/ pump assembly were just a little different, or the pump was way under rated as far as you. I'm also going to need a gromet for the top of the tank vent.
The pump that can out is a 35 year old original. The Ford part number is
E3UF-9H307-CC
Wondering if the rear tank will have the same part number? I'll cross that bridge after I wrap the midship up.
Also curious did the E350 cutaway originally have a booster pump on the frame rail? Looks like an after thought to me, I don't see any original wiring for it. Is just the in tank pump sufficient.

[Gary Lewis]

Wow!  That pump/sender assembly is .... AWFUL!  I've never seen a float that far gone.  

As for E3UF-9H307-CC, that's not the part number.  Since the late 60's no number on a Ford part is a part number.  What's on the part is an ID #, which is what you've found.  I have a cross reference and will see if I can cross that ID # to a part # tomorrow.

But I'm quite surprised with what I'm finding in the master parts catalog.  Below is everything in the MPC for the E-Series vans.  As you'll see, it starts with 1986.  But yours is an '85.  Further, your ID # of E3 says it was originally designed in 1983.  

[ArdWrknTrk]

Do you know what the sender reads at each extreme, and if the resistance increases smoothly?

What you read off the pump itself is an engineering number, not a part number.
You need the secret decoder ring (or an MPC) to determine a part number.

Sender floats and rollover valve grommets are available -if everything else is working- from many sources.
Mustang resto dealers and places like NPD will have one.

If the inside of the tank looks like the sender I'd just replace it.
By the time you burn the rust and corrosion out with acid, rinse it out with solvent like acetone and get it RedKote'd it is going cost more.
Not to mention the effort and that it will always be as old and thin as it is now.

The trucks never did have a booster pump.
No need. Plenty of volume and pressure at the carb.
Perhaps something as long as a cutaway RV did get an extra pump, but I imagine the PO put a band-aid on a bullet wound just to get the rig around.

ETA: The sock is torn.
No wonder the pump and fuel system are contaminated.

[ArdWrknTrk]

Late to the party...... again.  

Interesting that your MPC only goes back to '86, Gary.
Would this be something you have in the tower?

[ArdWrknTrk]

'83 was the year the M/400 went away and the 460 came back to trucks.(and vans?)
I'm not at all surprised a new pump & sender unit was introduced along with it.