Issues With Big Blue!?!?!

[ArdWrknTrk]

Forget the '04.
The hub issues are a step too far IMHO*.

[Gary Lewis]

So, is the order of "plushness" this, from worst to best, and including the range of lift?

F250 D44HD axle & springs
F350 D60 & springs = 2" lift
F350 D60 & springs +RSK = 4" lift
F350 D60 & SD springs
SD D60 axle & springs

Given that, is the F350 axle/spring combo a significant improvement?  Or is it really best to do the RSK?  If so, what about an RSK for the F250 springs?

[ArdWrknTrk]

I would say the stock D44+250 springs (worst), then regular F350 setup, D60 + SD springs, F-350 springs + RSK, then SD springs + RSK (best ride)

The reverse shackles importantly allow the axle to move with a bump.
With the stock springs that have a shackle at the front the wheels and axle have to deflect forward when they encounter a bump.

[ArdWrknTrk]

... Don't even be bothered with a RSK using the stock F-250 reverse arch springs.
Way too stiff and not enough travel.

[Gary Lewis]

So 350 + RSK would be a good combo.  But there's a low profile RSK kit?  Do I remember that correctly?  I don't need 4" of lift as that will put the front level with or slightly higher than the rear.  Unless I put 350 blocks on the rear?

[salans7]

The Lo-Pro shackle hangers are meant to help with the angle of the shackle. Because they put the shackle mount up higher, that's where the lift decreases.

The kit below is the one you need. It is only a 2" kit with the lo-pro hangers and shackles, 2.5" with the stock hangers you already have.

85-91 2" RSK OBS Spring

[Gary Lewis]

salans7 wrote

The Lo-Pro shackle hangers are meant to help with the angle of the shackle. Because they put the shackle mount up higher, that's where the lift decreases.

The kit below is the one you need. It is only a 2" kit with the lo-pro hangers and shackles, 2.5" with the stock hangers you already have.

85-91 2" RSK OBS Spring

Shaun - You said "with the stock hangars you already have".  Do you mean I can use that kit on Big Blue's D44HD TTB's?  Or, are you thinking when I get an F350's D60 and springs?

The Application tab says:

Truck: 85-91 F-350 4x4 straight axle trucks.
Springs: 52" 80-97 Ford F-350 front leaf springs
Axle: 85-97 F-350 Dana 60 or F-250 4x4 with TTB drop brackets from Tough Country part # 20852.

That confuses me 'cause it says that the kit works on an F350.  But then it seems to say it'll work on an F250 with TTB's.  

[ArdWrknTrk]

The LoPro shackles are suggested (and almost required) because of the near overcenter shackle angle you get with some springs.


Sorry, my tablets auto correct went crazy yesterday.  

[Gary Lewis]

No prob, Jim.

As an update, the guy from the salvage called and they can't find the D60 w/a 3.54 gear in it.  Plus, the truck that was said to have the 4.10 D60 probably has only the cross member and little else.  They are going to keep looking for the D60, but it looks like it is time to expand the search quite a bit.  I'll hit social media as well as ask my nephews to look.

And yesterday I sent this to Sky Off Road Design in an effort to get my head around their kit:

I have an 4wd '85 F250HD with a 460 and don't like the ride.  The D44HD is probably adequate for what I do, but I wouldn't mind a D60.  I'm looking for an F350 to get the D60 and associated springs, shackles, etc.

But I'm very confused as to the best way to install the springs.  Some have suggested your FORD-FSROB-002PN-NoPanHard kit.  But the application tab for it says "85-97 F-350 Dana 60 or F-250 4x4 with TTB drop brackets from Tough Country part # 20852."  Are you saying it'll work on my D44 TTB's?

Also, I'd like maybe 2" of lift but not a lot more.

And today I got back:

To my knowledge the TTB under your truck Is a “dana 50”,  It will work with our 85-91 2” Shackle Reversal, the best ride you’ll get is with the superduty spring kit for that year of truck.

https://www.skysoffroaddesign.com/collections/ford-78-91-front-suspension/products/copy-of-85-91-ford-f-350-4x4-2-front-shackle-reversal-superduty-spring

This is only about a month old now and just came out.

To which I responded:

Thanks, but I'm pretty sure that I have a D44HD.  I've attached two pics of the u-joints in the front axles, which have the interior clips of the D44 instead of the exterior clips of the D50.  Plus it uses the same lockout as my F150 w/a D44.  And, the GAWR of the front axle is 3850# and Ford's Master Parts Catalog, which you can see on my website here, says that the D50 wasn't used until 4600#.

So, back to my original question: I'm looking for an F350 to get the D60 and associated springs, shackles, etc.  But I'm very confused as to the best way to install the springs.  Some have suggested your FORD-FSROB-002PN-NoPanHard kit.  But the application tab for it says "85-97 F-350 Dana 60 or F-250 4x4 with TTB drop brackets from Tough Country part # 20852."  Are you saying it'll work on my D44 TTB's?

Also, I'd like maybe 2" of lift but not a lot more.

And the pics I attached were these, showing that Big Blue has the internal clips on the front u-joints, which Bronco Graveyard says proves it is a D44.  (Disregard the "light duty" F250 designation he mentions as that isn't quite correct.)

[ArdWrknTrk]

Tapered hubs with 150 sized lockouts = D44.
Mounted under a 250 with eight lug hubs = HD

Only the Supercab's always came with the D50.
Or it could be optioned as part of the plow package, for example

[Gary Lewis]

Right.  It is disconcerting for someone who is in a business where they should know better to be wrong.  But worse yet to tell me that I don't know what I have when he hasn't seen it.  

I guess I'm still hung up on them saying the application for the 85-91 Ford F-350 4x4 2" Front Shackle Reversal (OBS Spring) kit is:

Truck: 85-91 F-350 4x4 straight axle trucks.
Springs: 52" 80-97 Ford F-350 front leaf springs
Axle: 85-97 F-350 Dana 60 or F-250 4x4 with TTB drop brackets from Tough Country part # 20852.

I think there are two issues with that.  First, it doesn't really matter that the "truck" is an F350.  The kit will bolt on an F250 frame.  The key is that you are using those springs and an 85-97 D60.

But the other issue is the "F-250 4x4 with TTB" bit.  Are they saying it'll work w/my TTB's and the F350 or SuperDuty springs?  Or, is their website wrong and it will only work with the D50?

I'm asking as I'm not to hung up on getting a D60.  So if their kit paired with either F350 or SuperDuty springs would give me a bit of lift and the improved ride maybe I'd be happy.

[ArdWrknTrk]

To use their no panhard RSK kit on an F-250 you also have to source a drop pitman arm and a pair of drop TTB brackets from Tough Country.

You will still have all the downsides of TTB, such as finicky alignments, twisting springs, pivot bushings that wear out and limited caster/camber adjustment because of the offset bushings.

I did my research on this years ago and I couldn't find a rational reason to stay with TTB.

[Gary Lewis]

You make a valid point.  I'm still looking for the D60.....

Called my brother and asked him to ask his sons to look.  Both are exceptionally good at finding things, and he figured one of them would have the truck located by nightfall.  

And then posted this on four Ford truck Facebook pages:

I'm looking for a 3.54 D60, springs, pan hard rod, and associated brackets from an '86 - 97 F350.  I'm in the Tulsa area, but can travel reasonable distances.  What'cha got?

[Gary Lewis]

Got a lead from a friend on the Bulls N' Bricks: 80-91 Ford Trucks And Broncos FB page.  Actually, it is John Barnett, the owner of the page.  He said "this axle is also out of a 1991 cab and chassis dually.. it has the dually style front hubs."  So, what is different about the C&C's front hubs?

[Nothing Special]

Take this for what it's worth, because I have no personal experience with reverse shackle kits, just what I think is a pretty good understanding based on what I've read and what I know about the stock F-250 and F-350 suspensions.

As I understand it, originally none of the reverse shackle kits were intended for TTB front ends.  They were only made for solid axles that had the shackle in front.  So the '86 - '97 F-350 with the Dana 60 "monobeam" axle was the intended target.

However the F-250 HD and F-350 frames are identical, so if you swapped a Dana 60 "monobeam" axle into an F-250 HD you could use any RSK intended for an F-350 (because at that point you had all the same parts).

Then people started asking if the RSK would work on an F-250 that still had the TTB.  At first the RSK suppliers said "no", then (likely realizing that they were turning down money) they started saying "yes".

However there is strong concern about whether an RSK would improve the ride significantly with a TTB.  The RSK helps a solid axle because when a tire hits a bump and pushes the axle up, the RSK allows the axle and tire to move back, away from the hit rather than forcing it forward into the bump even harder.

The same physics should work in a TTB as well, except that in a TTB you have the suspension fighting itself already, with the spring trying to make the axle swing in one arc and the TTB trying to make it swing in another.  An RSK doesn't address that root problem.

Still, the 2" of lift provided by an RSK will get you away from the bumpstops significantly, so if the harsh ride is from hitting the bumpstops it should help quite a bit.  On the other hand, if the harsh ride is just from the stiff suspension, and you aren't even hitting the bumpstops, then it won't do much at all.

As to whether it would fit with the TTB, I'd certainly think it should, regardless of whether it's a Dana 44HD or a Dana 50.  The RSK only interfaces with the frame and the springs, so it wouldn't care what axle is bolted to the springs.  But as was already noted, a 2" lift with a TTB also requires the axle pivots to be dropped and a drop pitman arm.  Otherwise it'll screw up the steering geometry.

[Nothing Special]

Gary Lewis wrote

Got a lead from a friend on the Bulls N' Bricks: 80-91 Ford Trucks And Broncos FB page.  Actually, it is John Barnett, the owner of the page.  He said "this axle is also out of a 1991 cab and chassis dually.. it has the dually style front hubs."  So, what is different about the C&C's front hubs?

The dually has hubs that stick out a lot farther so you can put a dually wheel (with the huge offset) on it.  I THINK the axle itself is the same, so if you had normal Dana 50 hubs you could convert it.

Also the cab-and-chassis has a narrower frame than a pickup, but I'm pretty sure that's just behind the cab, so I don't think that would affect the font axle (spring perches are closer together on a dually rear axle).  But I'm only about 99% sure on the fronts being the same.

[ArdWrknTrk]

The cabs are the same so the front of the frame is the same.

Yep! Dually trucks have spindles that stick way out.
The F-450 I parted out had the rare 10 lug spindles and a HUGE pumpkin in the rear.
I'm pretty sure it was something like 5.52:1

[Gary Lewis]

Bob - In reverse order, John gave me a pic of those hubs, so I now understand.  Obviously not what I am looking for, but he says the hubs are not expensive.  And, it is geared 4.10.  

As for the RSK/TTB combo, that's a really good explanation and it makes sense to me.  And, it explains why I don't want it.

And, speaking of the clearance between the spring and the bump stop, I just stuck my pointer finger in on the driver's side and couldn't get it all the way in.  I'd guess that there is 7/8".  And, the bump stop is FLAT on the bottom with crazing that looks like it has been pounded.  

[salans7]

I follow Sky's Offroad on Instagram, and from what I can tell, their bread and butter is Aeronose trucks and older Toyotas. They are not Ford experts, they are simply machinists so any tech info taken from them should be with a grain of salt.

My earlier comment regarding your existing hangers was directed at the rear hangers. The only difference between your stock rear hangers and the Sky's replacement rear hangers is that they may have two shackle mounting positions for adjustment between different springs (86-97 or 99-04)

As for the D60 dually hubs, it's just a matter of pulling the bearings and spindle lock nuts out, and throwing on a set of the SRW hubs, which can be found all over Ebay. Don't discount a dually D60, they're the same aside from the hubs.

Also, finding a D60 that isn't geared w/4.10's is going to be tough. Probably only going to find that in an SRW F350 without a high GVWR.

Sent you an Email Gary.

[Gary Lewis]

Shaun - I'm not likely to take their recommendations with any amount of salt.  They don't know and don't know they don't know, and that's hard to fix.

Anyway, I'm starting to come to the conclusion that I may have to piece this together.  And, while that's not the way I'd like to go, it does open up some possibilities.

For instance, if it doesn't come with springs or the track bar, then I think that I could use SuperDuty springs.  And, Sky has the PanHard/track bar for $100 for poly bushings and $120 for Heim joints.  Am I right about this?

And, I got the email.  As said, I'll follow up.  Thanks!