Gas tank interference woes

[Pete Whitstone]

Hi All,

I am converting my 81 standard cab short bed truck to 4wd using '95 components (351w, E4OD, BW1356). After I put the transfer case in, I had to clearance the gas tank a bit to make enough room for the motor on the back of the transfer case. Basically just bend the seam on the tank up, then dent the tank in a little around where the motor sat.

I am still buttoning the project up, but today I went to install the VSS on the speedo gear hole on the transfer case tail housing. This is the unit from '86, where it is both a VSS and a speedo drive. The hole on the tail housing is pointing right at the gas tank, and there is not enough room to install the VSS. Even if there was enough room, then getting the speedo cable in and operating is not likely, it would basically have to bend 90 degrees within in inch of leaving the VSS.

So I'm not really sure if it's just the odd combination of parts I'm using or what. I kind of suspect that by the time they were putting E4OD's in these trucks, they weren't selling short wheelbase versions, so the later trucks just had the gas tank further back from the drivetrain components.

I guess my question is, is there any stock gas tanks out there that would work in this configuration, or have I just worked myself into a corner with the components I'm using and will have to customize a tank? I'm not really keen on doing all the work to switch to a rear tank set-up.

Any thoughts, anyone?

Thanks!

[Rembrant]

Pete Whitstone wrote

Any thoughts, anyone?

What transmission crossmember are you using in this swap?

When you say there is a motor on the transfer case, does that mean it is electric shift?

[FuzzFace2]

Tanks were not farther back.
From the wheel to the fillers are the same between the SB 16 gallon tanks and the LB 19 gallon tanks.

The 19 gallon tanks is longer to the front as seen above.

Cant help on your issue.
See if you can find the year truck  your parts came from and give a look see if it has the same issue and how Ford got around it.
Dave ----

[Gary Lewis]

I suspect it is the odd mix of parts you have, with the shortbed, E4OD, and a 1356 with electric shift.

Do you know what tank you have?  I think you should have a 16.5 gallon tank, but if someone put a 19 gallon tank in there...

I don't have dimensions on the tanks, but do have a 19 gallon in Big Blue, so could measure it if you'd like.

[Rembrant]

Pete Whitstone wrote

So I'm not really sure if it's just the odd combination of parts I'm using or what. I kind of suspect that by the time they were putting E4OD's in these trucks, they weren't selling short wheelbase versions, so the later trucks just had the gas tank further back from the drivetrain components.

Sorry, I read too quickly the first time around and missed this question/comment.

I bought a 1995 F150 4x4 SWB last year just for the chassis and drivetrain. I then swapped a 1980 bod on to the 1995 frame...cab and Flareside bed. I re-used the factory 1995 drive components...the M5OD trans, and BW1356 transfer case. In converting the truck to a 1980, I ordered and installed an 80-86 short wheelbase 16 gal side mount gas tank, and a new set of straps, and it bolted right in, and there were no clearance issues at all with the BW1356 transfer case.

The E4OD is quite a bit larger than the M5OD that was in mine, but that wouldn't change the left/right position of the transfer case. It might change the front to back position by an inch or two, but that's it.

My BW1356 would be the same size as yours also, but mine was manual shift, not electric.

This is why I asked previously about the crossmember. For all intents and purposes, the F150 frames were the same from 1980-1996, 2wd or 4x4. However, I bet you there were 30 different transmission crossmembers.

[Pete Whitstone]

Rembrant wrote

Pete Whitstone wrote

Any thoughts, anyone?

What transmission crossmember are you using in this swap?

When you say there is a motor on the transfer case, does that mean it is electric shift?

The crossmember from the 95 is what I used, the kind that wraps up the outside of the frame on the passenger side.

Yes, the TC is electric shift, I moved the motor and it's controller and switch over from the 95.

[Pete Whitstone]

Thanks for those tank pictures, that gives me something to compare to.

I measured the tank in my truck, it's around 40 inches. It is not the original from the truck, it looks pretty new. But when looking around online at tanks, I saw some of them measure 58 inches or so, so I think it is a 16 gallon.

[Pete Whitstone]

Thanks Gary, I would be interested in the dimensions of the 19 gallon tank.

My truck has a new-looking tank, I'm positive it's not the original, but I'm not sure it's a 19 gallon either. It measures about 40 or 41 inches in length, depending on how much of the seam I include. I saw some online that said they were 58 inches, mine is nowhere near that long.

I did compare it to the tank in the 95 donor truck, and that one appears to be about the same size. No interference issues on it, however, since it was an extended cab.

[Rembrant]

Pete Whitstone wrote

So I'm not really sure if it's just the odd combination of parts I'm using or what. I kind of suspect that by the time they were putting E4OD's in these trucks, they weren't selling short wheelbase versions, so the later trucks just had the gas tank further back from the drivetrain components.

Well, they definitely sold short wheelbase versions right up until 1996, and I'm pretty sure the gas tanks were the same dimensions and mounted the same all along as well.

I would guess that the short wheelbase 4x4's didn't get the E4OD, or the electric t-case shift? The E4OD only came out in 1989 as the heavy duty replacement for the shorter C6. The standard 4spd auto in an F150 at that time was still the AOD. 1991 was the last year for the speedometer cable, so that issue went away in 1992.

I'm guessing the E4OD is just too long...

[Gary Lewis]

I'll measure Big Blue when I can, but it may not be tomorrow.  And, I don't have the gas tanks in Dad's truck with the E4OD so may run into similar problems.  But if I do I'll go with the 38 gallon rear tank.

[85lebaront2]

The E4OD transmission is 6" longer overall than a C6, but, it is 9" longer front to mount pad than a C6 and that is probably where your interference is coming from. Basically your transfer case is now 9" further back in the frame than it was or would be with a C6.

[FuzzFace2]

Pete Whitstone wrote

Thanks for those tank pictures, that gives me something to compare to.

I measured the tank in my truck, it's around 40 inches. It is not the original from the truck, it looks pretty new. But when looking around online at tanks, I saw some of them measure 58 inches or so, so I think it is a 16 gallon.

If I can remember when I get home from work today I will try and get measurements from both tanks.

As for Gary? saying something about installing a 19 gallon side tank on a SB truck it's not going to happen.
Before I had a bed on my truck I tried to place the larger tank up there and there was no way it could fit.
Thst was another reason I did the rear dual tank on my flare side using the factory parts from the parts truck.
Dave  ----

[Pete Whitstone]

Rembrant wrote

The E4OD only came out in 1989 as the heavy duty replacement for the shorter C6. The standard 4spd auto in an F150 at that time was still the AOD. 1991 was the last year for the speedometer cable, so that issue went away in 1992.

I'm guessing the E4OD is just too long...

I got around the tank to motor interference fairly easily, it only took a little bending, and I can chalk that up to a reproduction tank being a little different dimensionally than a stock tank.

So that just leaves the VSS interference. I don't think this was ever a problem on a factory set-up, because (I am told) the speedo cable/VSS combo was a 1986 only thing (or maybe ended in 1986). The E4OD didn't come out til 89, so in 86 the shorter C6 moved the transfer case forward and away from the gas tank. I'm thinking my problem all boils down to using parts from different years that were never intended to go together.

In your 1980 body on a 95 chassis swap, what is your speedometer situation? Cable or VSS or both? If VSS only, it's on the 8.8", right?

[85lebaront2]

The VSS was in the center (roughly) of the cable in 1986 and may have been on the older models as it's primary function was for the speed control. After 1986 it was also used on EFI trucks for the EEC speed input. The rear axle speed sensor was originally for the RWAL system as it was needed to measure the rate of change, as in a sudden drop to 0 indicting a locked rear brake set.

Ford continued the speedometer cable VSS through 1991 and the rear axle sensor was still only for the RWAL system. In 1992 Ford changed to an electronic speedometer that used the RWAL sensor or on 4WD models the ABS system as a source. These have a PSOM (Programmable Speedometer Module) that (a) converts the pulses from the rear axle or ABS system to a speed output for the EEC and (b) does the same for the speedometer and odometer head. The PSOM is located in the speedometer assembly.

I am pretty sure this was probably cost driven as I am sure someone asked "why are there two speed sensing systems?" The other reason may have to do with simplifying the system, no need for an assortment of speedometer drive and driven gears in both right and left hand styles, just two tone rings, one for the 8.8 with 105 teeth and one for the 10.25" with 120 teeth. The only time you may need to tweak these is if you change tire diameter.

[Gary Lewis]

Bill - The changeover was in '86, as shown below which is from our page on Documentation/Driveline/Speed Control.  Prior to that it was in the middle of the cable, basically under the brake booster.

Pete - Could you go with the earlier cable & VSS?  The cable might miss the fuel tank w/o having the VSS spacing it out several inches.  I can confirm that the speed control was happy with the signal from either of them, so it must essentially be the same.

[Pete Whitstone]

Switching to the center-of-the-cable VSS seems like the path forward from here, provided the speedo cable without the VSS can go in the transmission without too much bending around the gas tank.

But there's a lot of confusion there too, in my mind. On the documentation on this site, there is this info:

"The 1980 - 85 speed sensor is part number D4AZ 9E731-B, as shown below, and is Motorcraft DY-145 and is marked D4AF 9E731.  Then in 1986 they changed to the sensor that went in the tranny or t-case, which is part number E3AZ 9E731-A and it is Motorcraft DY-382.  Then in April of 1989 they introduced a new sensor with part number E9TZ 9E731-A, which replaced the E3 part but still uses the same cable."

So when I add that up with the illustrations, it looks like the 80-85 sensor is by the brake booster in the middle of the speedo cable, and I need a Motorcraft DY-145. My searching so far has not turned up any available parts by that description. Presumably the VSS I have is the 1986-89 one, as it clearly goes in the Trans or TC. The part given for that is the -A suffix.

However, I see this on eBay:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/184597047388?chn=ps&norover=1&mkevt=1&mkrid=711-117182-37290-0&mkcid=2&itemid=184597047388&targetid=1263433204694&device=c&mktype=&googleloc=9026833&poi=&campaignid=14859008593&mkgroupid=130497710760&rlsatarget=pla-1263433204694&abcId=9300678&merchantid=108712546&gclid=Cj0KCQiAqvaNBhDLARIsAH1Pq52OE-iWSzVRH_tgsLLwhQ3QFNIFSmH9OnzrjoXQfs0PdxztCoYQ5SwaAhlnEALw_wcB

This is described as Motorcraft DY-144, and has the part number D4AZ-9E731-A. So according to what is above, this should be the 86-89 part. But it is clearly a middle-of-the-cable part, as it has screw threads on both sides.

I'm pretty sure it's the part I need if I go the mid-cable route. Does anyone know any different?

[Gary Lewis]

Pete - Ships/night.  Let me go to the shop and pull out the cross reference since part of the problem is that we are mixing part numbers and ID numbers.  Remember, the # on a part is not a part #.  It is an ID #.  And we can see ID# D4AF 9E73 on that part.  But we cannot see the rest of it.

Also, I have one that goes under the brake booster which you can have.  But you may want that new one, which is the middle-of-the-cable style.  At least I can see what # is on mine.

[Pete Whitstone]

Gary Lewis wrote

Pete - Ships/night.  Let me go to the shop and pull out the cross reference since part of the problem is that we are mixing part numbers and ID numbers.  Remember, the # on a part is not a part #.  It is an ID #.  And we can see ID# D4AF 9E73 on that part.  But we cannot see the rest of it.

Also, I have one that goes under the brake booster which you can have.  But you may want that new one, which is the middle-of-the-cable style.  At least I can see what # is on mine.

The Ford engineering vs part number system confuses the heck out of me. I realize that often we refer to the engineering number (or whatever Ford calls it) as the part number. But hey, if everyone is calling it a part number, it is effectively a part number.

If the one you have is a known good unit and you are willing to give it to me, I would gladly pay the shipping and accept it. I don't really know where to find a new one, the one I see on eBay is described as "refurbished". Not sure what that really means, the units don't look too serviceable to me.

Now I have to figure out if I've got the right speedo cable components.

Thanks!

[Gary Lewis]

I have 3 of those units, all of which have ID/engineering # on them of "D4AF-9E731-" but with no suffix like "B".  And that is very unusual.

Unfortunately none of my Master Cross Reference Lists include that ID #, so I cannot cross-ref it to a part number.  But, I'd bet that it is D4AZ 9E731-B.  And all three of these came off Bullnose trucks.

Anyway, the one on the right is yours.  Just send me an email with your address and I'll get it out on Monday.  It came off Big Blue so I know it was working.

As for part numbers vs ID/engineering #'s, just because people call the number on the part a part number doesn't make it so.  If that were the case we could call black "white" and vice versa.

The Master Parts Catalog has 3000+ pages of part numbers, and they don't show up on any of the parts.  But I have three Master Cross Reference Lists, each with over 1200 pages, and they have columns for part numbers and ID #'s.

I agree it is confusing.  And it is one for Ford's stupidist "Better Ideas".  But the number on a Ford part is not the part number.  

[85lebaront2]

Let me further confuse the issue, Darth is a 1986 F350 crew cab DRW model built in Aug 1986 in Oakville Ontario, Canada. My VSS for the speed control was in the cable just above the floor to firewall seam. Do not assume that changes like that were carved in stone. On the whole issue, look at a threaded speedometer cable attachment at your transfer case (go back into the 70s maybe) and a right angle 1:1 adapter so the cable can be routed up and over the transfer case.

Based on Gary's post above this one, those have the threaded connectors. I have seen some simple straight dual female end essentially tubes that a short piece of cable or even square key stock could be used to short couple a sensor or angle drive to another similar device.

Don't limit your search to just Ford, GM, Chrysler, independents and aftermarket can provide nice solutions.