Gary's Trailer Quest

[Gary Lewis]

Guys - I'm on a quest to buy a 20' car-hauling trailer and could use some advice.  But first, my rationale.  Heretofore I've borrowed trailers.  The first one I borrowed to bring a truck home shed the tread on two tires - in my driveway after a 200 mile trip, so I split the replacement costs with the owner.  Another I borrowed didn't have a spare so I bought one since I was going on a 200 mile round-trip.  Then when I borrowed that trailer the next time the pigtail had been accidentally cut off, and several other problems presented themselves.

And the big one was when a friend said "I have just the trailer for you to take to Florida to get Big Blue - but it needs a little wiring."  However, it didn't have an inch of good wire on it nor any lights as it had been in a grass fire.  Plus there were just a few bearing problems.  Long story short, with less expense than it would have cost to rent a U-Haul, Brandon got his trailer fixed and I enjoyed a very solid trailer for the trip.  Thanks again, Bruno.  

However, I want to have my own trailer so when I want to do something I can do it w/o finding a trailer to borrow and then fixing it, or at the very least checking the bearings as no one ever knows the last time they were lubed.  So, as said, I'm on a quest.  And, I've realized that there are trailers and then there are trailers.  Most of what I've found, used and new, are on 3500# axles with a GCWR of ~7000# and the whole trailer weighs about 2200 lbs.  So you are left with only 4800 as the capacity, and Big Blue weighs about 6500 lbs.  Obviously that is a non-starter.

Next up are trailers on 5200# axles with a GVWR of ~10,000 lbs and a trailer weight of ~2500.  Now we are talking.  However, if I load Big Blue up with a tent camper and want to go overlanding with my son in Colorado I'll be pushing the GVWR of the trailer.  Further, when I get 10 - 15% of the trailer's weight on the tongue, as you are supposed to do, there's more load on the front axle than on the rear axle.  But, the 225/75 R15 LRD tires these trailers use have a max load of 5080 for one axle, and it would be very easy to overload the front tires and axle, which I do not want to do.

So, I'm looking at trailers with 7200# axles and a GVWR of 14,000 lbs.  Subract 3600 lbs for the trailer and you still have over 10K lbs for the load.  And the 235/80 R16 LRE tires have a max load rating of 7040 for each axle, meaning there's a safe margin even when you move the load to the front for tongue weight.

And then there's the winch.  Most manufacturers put a "winch plate" on the very front of the deck.  But I think the winch needs to be on a stand to get the winch ~1' above the deck so the winch line isn't dragging on the deck.  Which brings me to my question: What length of dovetail to put on the trailer?  Most companies will do a 2', a 3', or a 4'.  One of the manufacturers said a 4' is a car hauler and a 2' is an equipment hauler.  But, I didn't think to ask him why.

I think a 4' dove is the way to go because it gives a more gentle slope that makes loading easier.  And, more importantly, the smaller angle should give less of a chance for the winch line to hit the break between the level deck and the angled dove.

Your thoughts, please? 

[Ken Blythen]

Gary,

A common suspension set up we use here (you probably do too), has linkages between the axles to allow them to float, while connected to each other.

This way they can travel over uneven ground, curbs, ditches etc. & still have an equal loading on each wheel.
Or, if the hitch height isn't level, there is still no overload on either axle (other than from the way the trailer might be loaded).

Here is a link with one example (this is an Aussie site)......http://www.trojanparts.com.au/index.asp?pageID=2145829335

Without this equalizing, you are forced to go up in axle capacity.

[Gary Lewis]

Ken - Thanks. We use the same setup. However, it isn’t perfect. I recently loaded a minivan on the trailer I have borrowed and from the way the tires bulged we obviously had more weight on the front axle than the rear. It was a front wheel drive minivan so had a lot of weight in front and it was long enough we didn’t have any options with where to position it on the trailer. And the level of the trailer was whatever it was because this was a rescue mission late in the evening using a borrowed trailer with a friend’s truck. But, it wasn’t too far off of level and yet the tires told us we had more weight in front than back.

We made that trip fine, but I’m hearing way too many stories from people I know well about blown tires while towing. Not only did they have to stop and replace the tire, in some cases the loss of one tire led to the loss of the other on the same side. And they were stuck. I don’t want to have that experience. 🙈  That’s the impetus for overkill on the trailer.

[85lebaront2]

Gary, that trailer may have had either no suspension, or like a friend's trailer, torsion bars or rubber springs which do not have the equalizer between the axles. On the dovetail, I never really cared for them, because if you are hauling something long (like a crew cab long bed truck) the rear wheels either end up on the slope or very close and it limits the adjustment range if the vehicle is nose heavy (like truck with a 460 or Diesel). Winch, maybe a high and low mount point so you can still load something with low ground clearance.

FWIW, my 5th wheel had a maximum gross weight of 10,000 lbs, which meant the axles were at least 5000 lb capacity, it used 6 lug 15" wheels and used LR E, I believe, trailer tires. It also had brakes on both axles. One thing you will want, a way to either cut off the brakes or sharply reduce the power to them empty otherwise you will flat spot the tires in a hard stop.

[Nothing Special]

Ken Blythen wrote

....A common suspension set up we use here (you probably do too), has linkages between the axles to allow them to float, while connected to each other.

This way they can travel over uneven ground, curbs, ditches etc. & still have an equal loading on each wheel....

That was my first thought too, and I almost replied with it.  But as I thought about it more, I don't think the leaf-spring equalizing setup will equalize for loading very well.  I think it's mainly for angle and uneven ground.  It's very effective when there's a fair amount of axle movement (like when one tire starts up a curb), but if you have 10% more weight on the front axle the spring won't be flexed that much more so it won't push the rear axle down that much.  Maybe I'm wrong and Gary doesn't need to worry about it, but as I thought about it more I think he probably does have a valid concern.  

[Gary Lewis]

Bill - The trailer does have springs and the equalizing link. But Bob is right, those things don’t spread the load all the time, just in bumps. Here’s what eTrailer has to say about them:

Used for multi-axle systems, equalizers are designed to transfer from one axle to another the additional load resulting from bumps. The transfer of load serves to equalize the weight being carried by all axles at the time of impact. Without an equalizer, going over a bump would cause one axle to have a disproportional amount of weight on it. Also, the equalizer allows for a smooth transfer of the impact through the suspension system under the trailer.

So the equalizer doesn’t really spread the load while going down the road. That means loading a trailer to the limit is difficult to do without overloading one axle, and as you said there are times when you don’t have a choice where you load the vehicle due to its length. In those cases you’d better have some reserve built into the load capacity of the trailer.

As for the dovetail, I don’t mind the rear of the vehicle being on the dove - especially with a 4’ dove since the angle is effectively half that of a 2’ dove. I chain the vehicle so that it can’t possible shift in any direction, so the dove doesn’t cause a problem with the height of the rear of the vehicle. But maybe I’m missing your point.

On the winch height, most vehicles I’ve hauled have rolled well enough when loaded that getting it to the front without the winch being on the deck wouldn’t be a problem. But I see what you are saying about a high/low location option being helpful. However, it seems to me like the low position would always cause the winch lead to hit the deck as the front of the vehicle starts up the ramp. And the shorter the dovetail the greater the angle the line will have to make.

As for the brakes, I have adjustable brake controllers for both of my trucks. Unfortunately even the ‘15 model’s factory controller doesn’t have memory for different controller settings so you have to remember the best setting or test it each time, but testing proves the brakes work, so that’s a good test to make anyway.

Bob - I think we are in agreement. 👍

[Nothing Special]

This might be too far out there, but I think a full air suspension might give actual load equalizing if you plumbed the front and rear air bags together.  That way the pressure in each bag would be the same.  Given that the area is also the same it would stand to reason that the force would be the same too.  Still, a little overkill with a simpler leaf-spring setup is probably a better choice.  And unless the cross-over plumbing was really big that setup might not give quick enough response for equalizing bumps.

[Gary Lewis]

Yes, air suspension should give equalized loading. But the lines between the axles would have to be large in order to allow quick changes when you hit bumps.  That could cause problems since moving a vehicle to the front would cause the front to go down and the rear to go up, making leveling more difficult.

I agree with the overkill idea on a simple spring arrangement being better.

[ArdWrknTrk]

Have you considered loading the trailered vehicle backwards so the engine is not putting all the weight on the front axle?

I've never owned a car trailer but I have rented them from uhaul.
Usually I just borrow a flatbed.

[Gary Lewis]

My brother and I talked about loading backwards just today. That was in the midst of the conversation about drive-over fenders. Turns out that Big Blue’s front tires measure 81” outside where they meet the pavement, and probably closer to 83” at max width. And the distance between fenders on most of the trailers is 82”. So it is going to be close with the front tires, but the back track is less so backing on might work better.

However, one dream I have is building a Bronco with big tires and that wouldn’t fit between the fenders. So I’m considering drive-over fenders so I can put anything on it. Yesterday I talked with a couple of guys with a big-tired late model Jeep on a trailer and they said everyone is going for drive-overs as nothing with big tires fits.

[85lebaront2]

Let's see, 1978 F250, 6 cyl, 4 speed 4WD on a friend's trailer using his E150 6 cyl C6 to tow it. Truck had to go on backwards due to width difference between front and rear. Best we could do was 35 mph before the tail started wagging the dog.

We were taking the boy scout camp's truck to rebuild the front end and replace the doors with old ones from my 77 F150.

[Gary Lewis]

A wider trailer or drive-over fenders would have allowed driving the truck on forward, thereby giving the needed tongue weight. 😉

[Ken Blythen]

You could purpose-build exactly what you need yourself Gary, & save in the process. I guess time is always an issue......

[Gary Lewis]

At this point in my life I’ve come to the realization that I need to get things done faster rather than cheaper. So, I want to buy it the way I want it rather than buy a trailer and modify it. Given that, I’ve been talking with the manufacturers to get them to modify their basic trailer for what I want. As it turns out, what I want and what they’ve done are in alignment in many cases. The biggest changes from the base trailer are the raised winch stand and the battery box, but most of the manufacturers have done those things before.

However, it looks like there is one thing I’m going to have to change - wiring. There are at least two levels of finished trailers around here - which I’ll call “basic” and “fancy”. The fancy trailers have nice aluminum trim here and there, smoother paint, and wiring harnesses with gel-filled shrink tubing protecting the connections. But the basic trailers have bare crimped butt connectors. 🙈  However, otherwise the trailers are what I want with the same material being used and a much less expensive price tag.

So I’m highly likely to buy a basic trailer and immediately cut out the butt connectors, slip a piece of adhesive-lined heat shrink on, solder the wires, and shrink the tubing. I think I can do that on a clean trailer with new wires up on the lift for the $1000 or so it will save me, and probably won’t take me more than a couple of days.

[85lebaront2]

That was the point I was making, that loading one backwards, unless it is rear engined (we always load Corvairs that way) can make it very hard to control.

[Gary Lewis]

Yep. Someone we all know was just initiated into the too-little-tongue-weight club. The pics I saw of the tow truck had it sitting nice and level, in spite of it having coils in the rear. He heeded the warning and reported that 20 MPH was all he dared go. 🙈

Here’s a video on what happens:

https://youtu.be/4jk9H5AB4lM

[CountryBumkin]

You may want to look at a couple of threads on the Tractor forum. They have a section on trailers, and the size and weights of may of these tractors are similar to what you intend to haul. There are some good links and advise available over there - if you have the time to read through the posts.

http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/trailers-transportation/


And where else can you see video demonstrating "fish tailing" effects based on trailer weight loading presented by UHaul?   http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/trailers-transportation/374840-fishtailing-trailer-simulation.html

[Gary Lewis]

CB - I've read a bunch of the posts on that forum.  Thanks.  Lots of opinions and experience in there.  But nothing that counters my decision.

And, that decision is to order a 20' 82-206DOF car-hauler from Starlite.  Here are the spec's:

14,000 LB GVW

2 5/16" ADJUSTABLE COUPLER (15,000 LB)

102" DECK WIDTH

1/8" TREAD PLATE DECK

4' DOVETAIL w/ 1/8" TREAD PLATE

60" X 3" CHANNEL UNDER-MOUNTED RAMPS

2 - 7,000 LB ELECTRIC AXLE w/brakes on both axles

5 NEW 235/80 R16 TIRES 10 PLY w/spare mount

6" CHANNEL IRON WRAP TONGUE & FRAME

3" CHANNEL CROSS MEMBERS ON 16" CENTERS

FRONT BUMP BAR

TREAD PLATE DRIVE OVER FENDERS

10,000 LB DROP LEG JACK

STAKE POCKETS & RUB RAIL

LED LIGHTS

6-D RINGS ON THE DECK

WINCH STAND

And, here's a picture of roughly what I'm ordering.  But it won't have the stand-up ramps and it will have the winch stand.  But, it is the best pic I have at the moment.  We'll go order it on Thursday and it'll take about 4 weeks to make.

[CountryBumkin]

Nice.

[Gary Lewis]

Well, if that was Plan S, for Starlite, we are now to Plan T, for Turn & Burn. 😳

Yesterday I got a call from a guy I’d previously been trying to reach because he has an aluminum trailer that I thought I wanted. But he wasn’t returning calls, and a week went by and I realized the aluminum trailer was pretty, but not what I wanted as it just didn’t have the GVWR I think I need.

As it turns out he was out of the country and without cell coverage, but did call yesterday. I explained that the trailer wasn’t what I wanted, and he asked what my plans are and I told him. He said he recently had a Starlite but it just didn’t work the way he wanted, so had one built by Turn & Burn and loves it. So I called them and now my plans have changed.

The trailer is essentially the same as shown above, but with a few changes:

The tongue is 1’ longer, which gives extra clearance for the tailgate to open without hitting the jack, allows for tighter turns, and should cause it to trail better.

The wiring is done using shrink tubing over the butt connectors, and the lights plug into the harness.

The D-rings will be welded to the crossmember as well as the deck rather than just to the deck. And, there will be an extra one in the center of the dovetail for that one more chain for safety, and for attaching a snatchblock if you have to winch something off the trailer.

The width between fenders will be increased to 83” from the standard 82”. That is significant as Big Blue’s tires are 81” at the contact patch, and one more inch should allow it to drive on w/o problems.

We’ll go see some of his trailers in the morning and put money down on mine if we like what we see. 😉