Early GT-350/GT-500 Thread - 1965-70

[Bronco638]

It appears I'm not the only forum inmate that's owned an early Shelby GT-350 or GT-500. I'm always amazed at the amount of cross-over between Ford vehicles (but, I really shouldn't be, economies of scale and all). That said, there are somethings, like the 4-speed Toploader transmission, that I'd love to have in my truck but know that they're now expensive to purchase and may not fit well in my application (1980 F-150).

That said, let's reminisce! I'll bring a post over from another thread to get this going.

[Bronco638]

85lebaront2 wrote

I was just reading through some of the posts and saw your comment about
running 80-90 wt gear lube in the GT350s. I ran that in mine, I actually
never had the close ratio T10 as the transmission had been "stolen". I was
told the police had recovered it and I should be able to get it back from
them with the car titled in my name. Not quite, the Suffolk VA police never
even had a report, they said he probably sold it.

The engine was out of the car and in a local machine shop (that's how I got
the car, owner told me the car was for sale). I wound up with two different
transmissions, a wide ratio T10 and a Ford toploader. For street use, the
wide ratio was great. Detroit locker was gone, rear end gear was a 4.56,
which did get replaced with a proper 3.89 gear and a new "silent" Detroit
locker (if that was silent, I really do not want to hear the non-silent
one).

I had the car for 11 years, 1970 through 1981, sold it because we had 3 kids
and needed the money. Current owner is in Sidney, NSW, Australia, car was
SFM6S2050. Here's a pic:



This was at a high speed event at an, at the time, unused portion on a local
airfield, this a turn from one taxiway onto one runway. It was called
"Corvette corner" because 19 of the first 20 cars spun trying to make it,
car 20 was a GT350, not mine though.

Have I got some tales for you Bill..... More to come.

[Bronco638]

For now, here's this. This is 6S648 in the Corkscrew at Laguna Seca (now Mazda Raceway) in 2018. This was my Dad's car. Originally dark green metallic with white LeMans stripes, we added chrome yellow between the LeMans stripes as well as to the intake portion of the R-Model apron. I got the idea from the way some of the old Aston-Martin DB sports cars were painted. After my Dad sold it, the car was crashed pretty severely at Watkins Glen, in the early 90s. It's been rebuilt and is now owned by an Australian but resides in the US (as far as I know). The paint has been modified so the LeMans stripes are now one solid stripe with yellow at the edges. The intake area of the apron only has yellow at the bottom of it now. Still, a pretty car but I haven't seen it since my Dad sold it.

[85pig]

LOL - I wish.  I've been mostly relegated to Mercury Comets and Ford Torinos.  My "give up an organ" car is the DeTomaso Pantera.  If I ever win the lottery....

Always wanted a Sunbeam Tiger as a kid, until I sat in one as an adult.  At 6'-5", it was never meant to be.

[85lebaront2]

At the time I purchased it we had just moved the business I was part of up the street and across from the East side to the West side. The space we rented had two large areas connected by a hall with an office space next to it. The back was a large open are with concrete block walls, open ceiling (you could see the roof support structure) and had a gas fired heater in one rear corner. A perfect inside shop area!

We built a long L shaped counter for the prerequiste catalog rack and a number of shelves for stock. We bought an engine analyzer that could be rolled to cars being serviced, later an Allen distributor machine that was capable of spinning one at 5000 rpm or 10,000 engine rpm (you could definitely see point bounce or float on it!). Fred and James Pennington ran the front, Fred would do some shop work, but that was my domain. I did tune-ups, carburetor rebuilds and after purchasing a small bench lathe from Sears, actually made parts.

We were a Holley warehouse and authorised service center. I had, when I first went by Preston Carburetion, a 1964 Falcon with a 260 V8 and three speed column shift and factory AC. My father had purchased it while I was at USMCR boot camp at Parris Island. After I returned he gave me a choice, assume the payments or find something else. After hitting a few dealerships and finding that 19 years old, I would still need a co-signer, I told dad I would assume the payments on the Falcon. Needless to say, it didn't stay stock long. I was a member of Beach Ford Drag Club at the time and we got a discount on parts. They had a nice tri-power Ford Muscle Parts kit that was for a 289, but since I had put a set of Jahns 10.5:1 pistons in and a Lunati hydraulic cam that was very close to the 289 Hi-Po solid lifter one (Late production 260, car build date 27 July 1964) there were a lot of Mustang pieces and the engine had 289 heads from the factory. I also had Hedman Headers and dual exhausts on it.

I had gone to a machine shop in Suffolk VA to discuss some engine work on the 260. the owner showed me the Cobra 289, said the car was for sale and you have heard that part. Even on the Shelby, I couldn't resist things, by then I was a member, and even president of Beach Ford Mustang club. They had a partial 2-4 barrel kit, carbs had been sold, due to the fuel rail missing one support leg. I bought it at a discount as sourcing the carbs was easy (see above regarding Preston) I pulled an R-1848 (465 cfm) from the pile of cores and ordered an R-4548 (also 465 cfm) for stock. I converted the R4548 to manual choke and removed the choke from the R-1848. I ordered two secondary diaphragm covers with the synchronizing nipples and installed them. Put the whole thing together and sat it on a shelf in the waiting/sales area as a conversation piece. One evening, I stayed and installed it. Shelby had Hooker large tube (1 5/8" primaries) as the original Tri-wyes were Swiss cheese and I had Hooker Header mufflers and side outlet exhausts. In the picture I was running straight pipes of the headers to side exit just ahead of the rear wheels. Ear plugs were good for 2 seconds a lap due to the exhaust noise.

[85lebaront2]

Let me see if I can get this in.

We called it the Bull Island incident, Bull Island being the nickname for Poquoson VA as it is mostly on an island in the marshes West side of Chesapeake Bay.

The Bull Island Incident
This was probably sometime between early 1975 and early 1978. I had a 1966 Shelby GT350 and a 1963 Oldsmobile Jetfire. We had been to an autocross in Norfolk or Virginia Beach and my wife decided to try to beat me by taking a short cut through the industrial park near our house. The Jetfire dropped a valve either because the GM Roto-Hydramatic model 5 failed to upshift, of just plain due to 165,000 miles on the Turbo-Rocket engine. I got it out to my best friend’s place in York County and got a 4 barrel 215 engine from a junkyard to stick in so it could still be driven.

We were working late on it and John heard the local street crowd in Poquoson revving up. He looked at me and said “can I?” I replied, yes, boost pump switch is under the dash center. He left, at this point in time Poquoson had one stoplight where the two main roads Wythe Creek Road and Little Florida Road crossed, there was a 7-11 on the corner where they would meet, then go out onto Magruder Boulevard a nice 4 lane divided highway with very little on either side (this had been a popular place to race from when it was 2 lane road). The intersection with Wythe Creek Road and Magruder was at a curve in Magruder, followed by a little bridge over a creek then it is pretty well straight for over a mile with a stoplight at Big Bethel Road, John’s house is on a parallel street about 2 blocks Northeast of Magruder.

I heard a group of obviously hot cars come out of Poquoson, almost immediately the sound of dual Holleys opening all the way. John said when he got to the 7-11, he went in bought a box of laundry soap and a case of beer, when he came out there was a small crowd around the Shelby and one asked “you wanna run that?” John said, “naw, I never run my street car.” obviously throwing the gauntlet down. As he put it, when he started it he “fired for effect” giving enough throttle that the car torqued somewhat counterclockwise in reaction, then he deliberately backed out vigorously so the Detroit Locker made the tires chirp a bit, as he turned to leave the parking lot there was a mad scramble to the other cars, a total of 5, all with the rear ends jacked up for drag racing. One Road Runner, a Duster 340, a couple of SS396 Chevelles and a Barracuda, probably a 383 or 440.

When he got onto Magruder the “parade” was behind him, there was a car in the right lane before the bridge, the group let him move to the left, at which point, having already turned the boost pump on he proceeded to “waltz” the car over the bridge. Now he had a dilemma, either lose them or have to race and hope he didn’t get my car impounded. He decided the best option was to use the speed, handling and brakes on the Shelby to his advantage. The direct road into his house was in terrible shape so we always went to the next road up and back, turn right and to his house on the next corner.

He wound the Shelby up until he passed his house and at the next crossover did a “bootlegger’s turn”, literally sliding through the crossover, back headed the opposite way, he did it again, and as he did, he could see these “drag racers” trying to negotiate a U-turn as he said hippity hop as their jacked up rear suspension didn’t like sharp turns, and some of them may have had spools. As he made the second U-turn, he killed the lights, motored to the turn, quickly whipped into the side street and killed the engine, he coasted 3 blocks, 2 straight and 1 after a right turn into his driveway. I could hear some tire noise and a whole lot of Cobra 289 noise (side exhausts).

We stood there drinking the beer and listened to these 5 clowns roaring up and down Magruder for a couple of hours. The following Monday, I was in my shop and a young guy came in and was telling me how “some guy with a 427 in an early Mustang just embarrassed him and a bunch of his friends and his brother was coming down from WV this weekend with his Hemi Cuda to teach him a lesson.” I looked at him and said “really, what did the car look like?”, he looked out front and said like that one out by Jefferson Ave. I told him I was honored that the MOPAR guys felt they needed a Hemi to take on a damn 289 and he couldn’t believe until I took him out and open the hood and showed him. He was mumbling something to effect of “2 4 barrels on a 289 ……” the rest wasn’t printable.

Now, fast forward to 1993 or 1994, my son, Matt, who wasn’t born when this took place, but had heard about it several times, is at a friend’s house, a fellow teenager from his school named Will Watson, his dad was known as Doc Watson, and was a big block MOPAR guru. Matt was telling Will this story, and Doc turned around and said, stop, repeat that, so Matt did, Doc turned to Will and told him “I don’t care what it is, if it’s carbureted and his dad worked on it, don’t even think about running him, I was the one that walked into Preston and said that, and it was your uncle who had the Hemi Cuda.

[Bronco638]

I like it!

[Bronco638]

85pig wrote

LOL - I wish.  I've been mostly relegated to Mercury Comets and Ford
Torinos.  My "give up an organ" car is the DeTomaso Pantera.  If I ever win
the lottery....

Always wanted a Sunbeam Tiger as a kid, until I sat in one as an adult.  At
6'-5", it was never meant to be.

Nothing wrong with a Comet or Torino. I remember being in the Mercury dealer in Ft. Wayne, IN and looking at a Pantera. My dad told me they had them stacked up and couldn't give them away.

I always thought a first series Lotus Cortina would be a fun ride. Or, stuffing a Cosworth BDA into a first generation Fiesta....

[85lebaront2]

My current project is a different brand, a 1986 Chrysler Lebaron convertible, originally a 2.2L TBI engine. When my 1985 convertible was totaled by a Mercedes ML320 I saved all the good parts, but with lessons learned added improvements, 1989 Lebaron coupe dash, 1989 Lebaron convertible console. 1989 Lebaron front suspension and brakes (brakes were actually the same) 1989 Lebaron rear suspension and brakes (rear disc with internal drum parking brakes).

I am in the process of adapting a 1974 AutoTempII system to it (a bit of interesting engineering to make it work).

Engine is a 1988 service short block a TurboII unit with forged crank, floating wrist pins and nice forged pistons. At 14psi boost, roughly 200 hp and will smoke an early 2000s Mustang GT easily. Turbo is a Garrett unit that was factory for the TurboII engines.

[grumpin]

Cool stories!

Sorry guys, not a Shelby story, but noticed Bill mentioned a Buick 215.

I bought a 1974 Vega with a Buick 215 aluminum V8 in it. And I believe a TH400, could have been a TH350.

That little burger was pretty fast. I was stationed in southern California at the time, around 1981.

We would go out and find like minded people and race a little bit.

One night a Vette thought it was a joke until I kept up with him, we came to a stop and says what did you do to that and I said it was stock, which was technically true as the 215 was stock. He says right, pull into that parking lot, he wanted to see.

We ended up talking for quite awhile, fun times. Man, as a gearhead I loved SoCal, anything you wanted was there, just had to have the money!

And our base had a cool auto shop on it, you could use stalls and special tools they had on hand.

The usual suspects hung out on the weekends and helped each other.

My line chief had a Corvette.

Another friend had a 180 HP turbocharged Corvair, I think they called it a Monza Spyder. That car was fast, I think his dad helped him with that car, his dad raced on the East Coast, Bill you may know him, Dutch Irrgang, The Flying Dutchman.

Another friend had a 67 Cougar with a 289, three on the floor. That almost killed me! I was amazed at how much power we got out of the 289!

[85pig]

I come from a line of Ford parts monkeys; my dad worked in Ford parts from the early 50s to around 1980 or so.  Had a guy in town that had two Panteras, and my dad said he would cringe every time one of them rolled up.  He hated looking up parts for them.  That's how we were with Probes in the 80s.  Oddballs with non-Ford numbers on the fiche, etc.  He totaled one of the Panteras, and years later my mom was friends with his widow.  She set up a time for me to come look at the surviving car, man was it nice (I rode in it once on the sly, but that's another story).  What was cool was having a 70+ year old woman with a thick German accent step into her garage, and start with "it has a 351 Cleveland and ZF five speed transmission".  God rest her soul.

On that note, I'm a Holley hater.  Never had one that I could get to run right for any length of time.  I've seen guys online say that "you just don't know how to tune them".  My dad also hated Holleys, my brother drug one home one day in the mid-80s with the intention of putting it on his 68 Torino.  My dad said something along the lines of "what did you buy that piece of ---- for?"  He said they were always junk, and I'd guess working the back counter of a Ford dealership all through the muscle car era where Ford put them on lots of engines, they must have always been problematic.  And if the Ford mechanics struggled with them, then it's not just me.  Some guys just have the touch, I guess.  As for me, I go with Dirty Harry: "a man's got to know his limitations".

[Gary Lewis]

85pig wrote

On that note, I'm a Holley hater.  ...  As for me, I go with Dirty Harry: "a man's got to know his limitations".

Amen, brother!

Anyway, a Vega with a 215 Buick sounds like fun!  Light & lighter = fast.

And a Pantera would be fun as well, but I guess I didn't realize they had a ZF five speed.  If that's a ZF5 then that might take some of the fun away.  I've not driven a ZF5 that I really liked - including mine.

[Bronco638]

Here's how we came to own our first GT-350 (6S638);

My Dad decided that we'd had enough fun with our first Mustang, a '65 convertible with a 289 and C4 automatic. I had started with a '67 GTA Fastback (289/C4) but sold it to buy a '66 GT Fastback. The '66 was a 289/Toploader. We ended up selling it back to the guy I bought it from. He sold it to us as a partially completed project, we finished it up and then he HAD to have it back (I think it was his brother's car and his brother had died before we met him). Anyways, '65 convertible was sold as well. I'm not sure how my Dad found the GT-350 but we lived north of NYC at the time and the car was in Fredericksburg VA. On a Spring Break trip to Florida, he stopped to check it out and then, on the way home, stopped to buy it (for some reason, I flew to Florida to meet my family in Jacksonville and also flew home - I don't recall why though). The car was delivered in a sad state. No engine or transmission, hacked rear quarters, no interior, no front fenders. The hood was so beaten up we threw it away and bought an aftermarket fiberglass one (without the steel frame). It did come with NOS quarter panels. It was also green (like 6S648) but had been partially painted white with blue LeMans stripes, like the '65s.

The guy we bought it from, Jim Graves, worked at the local Ford dealer in Fredericksburg, Virginia. He was driving home from work one evening and noticed the Shelby sitting abandoned on the side of a back road. Since this was his normal route, he kept and eye on it, daily. One morning, it was gone. As he was originally from Fredericksburg, he knew all the local LEOs (as he'd gone to school with them). So, he called a friend and asked if anyone knew anything about the car. Sure enough, it had been declared abandoned and the local junkyard had it. He promptly drove to the junkyard and bought it. We got it in pretty much the condition in which he purchased it. He got the quarter panels thru the dealership (as well as some other odds-n-ends). He built a 351 to put in it but had so much money in the engine, he didn't have much left for anything else. He was willing to sell the car with or without the 351. We opted not to buy the 351 as he had a line of people ready to buy it. Interestingly, Jim found the original cast aluminum valve covers and the original cast aluminum T-pan (oil) in the trunk! The wheels were also the original 10-spoke and still on the car. Thru the Shelby American Automobile Club we were able to get the original invoice for the car. It was sold to Bill Currie Ford in Tampa, Florida. The 10-spoke wheels were an option (steel wheels were stock, as on Bill's car). Last time I checked, Bill Currie Ford was still in business. I have no idea how the car ended up in Virginia.

The car underwent a complete restoration with the intent of being a driver (as opposed to a trailer queen). It ended up being converted into a vintage race car. I sold it in the late 90s as it was spending too much time in a storage facility (no longer street legal). It had served its purpose and it was time to let someone else enjoy it. It's now in Australia, painted to look like a '65 (which kind of makes me mad as the green GT-350s are very few and far between).

[85pig]

Kind of mispoke - ZF TRANSAXLE.  And old Miss Margarite would have corrected me, too!

Closest I've been to a Shelby really was a ride in a 67 GT500; grew up in a military town, and some idiot GI traded it in at the local Chevy dealership.  One of the town collectors snapped it up, and gave me a ride in it.  Ran like crap - spark knock, etc.  Car was beautiful, white with the blue skunks.  He ended up blowing it up, and had the 428 rebuilt, and had a correct dual quad setup put on it. Never got to ride in it after that, sorry to say.  Don't know if he still owns it.  My Pantera now resides in Germany; Margarite's only son (engineer) had it shipped over to him.  

[85lebaront2]

Mine had a similar issue, hood was missing, I also went to the local Ford Dealer, Center Ford in Newport News and ordered a replacement hood, same thing, fiberglass with the whole center open. On wheels, mine had the Magnum 500s, but a good friend who was serving our country in USAF found a set of the 14" 10 spoke mags and bought them, came back to Newport News with them as "carry-on" baggage. Here is a not super good picture of him and the car with the 10 spoke mags:

He would take my Shelby, wash and wax it just so he could drive it.

Since I was racing it, both parking lot events and a high speed series, I had relocated the battery to the trunk for better weight distribution. Best friend had borrowed it to have some fun with a young man he knew who had just bought a Mustang fastback. His battery was down, so while he was there John was going to give him a jump. John opened the hood and looked and then remembered "battery's in the trunk", at which point he was asked "how long have you owned this car?"

The steel rims in the picture are Boss 302 factory 15" rims I used for racing, tires were G60-15 recapped Gillettes If I remember correctly, they were recapped with the same Goodyear compound that the local racer's ran at our 3/8 mile track.

Where in Australia is yours? Mine is in Sydney, NSW.

[Gary Lewis]

I certainly hope a ZF transaxle shifts better than a ZF5.  All of those I've been around shift like what they are - truck transmissions.

[85lebaront2]

One of my customers, who owned, and still does a tractor dealership in Surry VA had a 1967 GT500, He brought it to me to have the carburetors rebuilt and a major tune-up. When finished I took it out on our "test track", Tyler avenue. Damn that car would pull, when I turned onto Jefferson Ave. a nice 6 lane wide 45 mph speed limit main road, I stood on it, had to back off until the tires caught, then nailed it, all 8 barrels opened up.

[Bronco638]

85lebaront2 wrote

Where in Australia is yours? Mine is in Sydney, NSW.

Melbourne, I believe. I found an on-line article about the car's owner that indicated, at the time of publication (2006), 6S648 was in Australia, too. As of 2018, I believe 6S648 stays in the US while its owner resides in Oz.