EECs - What happens to our trucks years from now? (Semi-serious question)

[ckuske]

Hi Everyone,

This is not a priority for me, as my EEC is original and working fine.  But I was wondering today - another 40 years from now, the MTBF of our EECs will have expired and who knows if there will be any commercial repair options like Cardone etc.

I wonder if anyone has ever asked Ford for the design data or source code for their EECs in these trucks?  I doubt they'd be commercially interesting for Ford at this point.  Aside from Ford being protective of any and all intellectual property, if they did open source or otherwise disclose the EEC code, it'd be interesting to make an EEC from a Raspberry Pi or make an open source ASIC.  I think there'd be enough pins on a Pi to emulate an EEC and do all sorts of other stuff that'd probably be frowned upon without a liability disclaimer.

If there is source code, it's probably Assembler at best, or maybe it's all just an ASIC.  It will be interesting to see how these things are maintained/repaired as the years go by....

[Rusty_S85]

ckuske wrote

Hi Everyone,

This is not a priority for me, as my EEC is original and working fine.  But I was wondering today - another 40 years from now, the MTBF of our EECs will have expired and who knows if there will be any commercial repair options like Cardone etc.

I wonder if anyone has ever asked Ford for the design data or source code for their EECs in these trucks?  I doubt they'd be commercially interesting for Ford at this point.  Aside from Ford being protective of any and all intellectual property, if they did open source or otherwise disclose the EEC code, it'd be interesting to make an EEC from a Raspberry Pi or make an open source ASIC.  I think there'd be enough pins on a Pi to emulate an EEC and do all sorts of other stuff that'd probably be frowned upon without a liability disclaimer.

If there is source code, it's probably Assembler at best, or maybe it's all just an ASIC.  It will be interesting to see how these things are maintained/repaired as the years go by....

Someone like Holley might step in.  Look at the Foxbody era EFI systems, those computers are pretty much obsolete where you cant really find people to tune them for modifications.  Holley sells a complete computer and harness that plugs and play with the OE systems but uses the Holley computer system making them easier to tune via laptop.

I could see someone like Holley getting involved with a plug and play update on the obsolete systems.  But it might be a long time if ever they get around to doing that.  Many might just see it as a whole we offer aftermarket systems just gut what you have and throw on an aftermarket system.

[Rembrant]

Chris,

Out of curiosity, what is the current situation in California with a truck like yours? Would you be allowed to install an aftermarket EFI system, and still pass your road certification/smog tests?

[RenoHuskerDu]

Carburetors, or simple meter-flap CIS injection such as K-Jetronic.

More of a worry to me is our newer trucks such as Aeronose or SuperDuty, with the Powerstroke run entirely by the PCM, and all the electric components run by the GEM/BCM. But that module could be bypassed and power windows etc wired like a Bullnose.

[85lebaront2]

Once you get into the EEC-V level, there are solutions, the EEC-V computer (used on all under 8500 GVW trucks and some over in CA) can be reflashed as long as the basic hardware code (located on the connector socket side) matches the vehicle it will be used in. Specifically engine = V8, transmission = either manual or automatic and type of automatic.

Example, for a V8 and E4OD the hardware code is ML1-441 and is rather common in E-series vans with a 351. These can be reflashed to run a 460 and E4OD by changing displacement, injector size and firing order with the proper software and an OBD-II communication and flash enabling cable, Gary and I have the Mongoose Pro cables and use Binary editor to change parameters, disable unused components etc.

OEM computers are available as remanufactured from a number of sources. This concern is valid and is not peculiar to Ford vehicles. My other perversion is Chrysler turbocharged 4 cyl engines (see my T2K-CAR in Projects) and those of us with those vehicles are in the same boat, with the addition of a much lower volume originally than Ford pickups. It is also compounded by many changes, 3 different computer style since 1983 through the 90s and the last has apparently 3 or more variants that are not 100% cross compatible.

[ckuske]

So I'm going to do some research and report back on the details, but my understanding today is this:

There is a visual inspection done before any "sniff" test is done from the tailpipe.  If the visual inspection finds that any emissions equipment that was present at the time of manufacture is missing, the test fails.  You can then go to a "referee" to argue your case.  

I don't know enough about the EFI kits, but for instance if the line that captures carb bowl fuel vapors to the charcoal canister is missing because you went to EFI for instance (I don't think this exists on EFI trucks), the visual test fails and you have to plead your case with a smog referee because you got rid of the carb setup and the applicable smog controls that go along with it.  I don't have any knowledge of how well that typically goes, but I wouldn't be optimistic.

There is a website where you can look up approved aftermarket solutions, but the website is erroring out for me... (https://www.arb.ca.gov/msprog/aftermkt/devices/amquery.php)

[85lebaront2]

That makes me very glad I don't live in California. Here we have update/backdate laws. I can update to a newer system as long as it is from the same class of vehicle. Ours is strictly visual here, some areas do have a physical test at least on OBD-II vehicles.

I have updated Darth from a carbureted 460 with a C6 to MAF/SEFI 460 with an E4OD. Since my emission label says "NON CATALYST" in 1/4" tall bold letters and the air pump on EFI engines only went to the catalyst, I have none of that, evaporative system is still connected. I was able to have the dual exhaust head pipes that originally went to the catalyst connected using a flange off a bad cat that was removed directly to my existing dual system to the muffler (mid 1984 - 1987 system).

[Rusty_S85]

ckuske wrote

So I'm going to do some research and report back on the details, but my understanding today is this:

There is a visual inspection done before any "sniff" test is done from the tailpipe.  If the visual inspection finds that any emissions equipment that was present at the time of manufacture is missing, the test fails.  You can then go to a "referee" to argue your case.  

I don't know enough about the EFI kits, but for instance if the line that captures carb bowl fuel vapors to the charcoal canister is missing because you went to EFI for instance (I don't think this exists on EFI trucks), the visual test fails and you have to plead your case with a smog referee because you got rid of the carb setup and the applicable smog controls that go along with it.  I don't have any knowledge of how well that typically goes, but I wouldn't be optimistic.

There is a website where you can look up approved aftermarket solutions, but the website is erroring out for me... (https://www.arb.ca.gov/msprog/aftermkt/devices/amquery.php)

The visual test can be easily passed.  All you have to do is keep the systems installed you can deactivate them in numerous ways to not pose a risk with the aftermarket EFI.  the Aftermarket EFI will help you pass emissions but it wont be fool proof, without EGR for example you might not pass the sniff test on the dyno.

Here in Texas if you have a old vehicle and it just wont pass the emission test you have to spend so much money I think its $1,500 or $2,500 on repairs and if it still doesnt pass you can actually get a waiver where it will be passed by default.  Surely they have the same rule in California, and if the parts are no longer avaliable to make certain emission systems functional and they want to test them you might be able to argue that to get a waiver.

Here in Texas we do safety only for 25+ years old but we do still have the visual test but its all a joke and no shop that I know of follows the visual inspection for emission systems.  They know they are non functional by now and its pointless.

[Rusty_S85]

85lebaront2 wrote

That makes me very glad I don't live in California. Here we have update/backdate laws. I can update to a newer system as long as it is from the same class of vehicle. Ours is strictly visual here, some areas do have a physical test at least on OBD-II vehicles.

I have updated Darth from a carbureted 460 with a C6 to MAF/SEFI 460 with an E4OD. Since my emission label says "NON CATALYST" in 1/4" tall bold letters and the air pump on EFI engines only went to the catalyst, I have none of that, evaporative system is still connected. I was able to have the dual exhaust head pipes that originally went to the catalyst connected using a flange off a bad cat that was removed directly to my existing dual system to the muffler (mid 1984 - 1987 system).

Same here in Texas as well as I think its the same for all states.  You can update your vehicle but you can not back date your vehicle.  You can install a newer engine into your vehicle but you cant install an older engine in an attempt to avoid emission requirements.

I am kind of doing that in a sense using a newer block but back dating it to my year which no one will know unless they tear into the engine.  I really dont think anyone cares about that unless it comes to late model OBDII vehicles and even then most places dont care long as the check engine light is off and it gives a pass on the inspection.  They wouldnt care if you have O2 simulators in the exhaust long as it passes.

[ckuske]

These are the details I'm not straight on.  I think you could move from Carb to EFI, provided you had all the original emissions equipment that came with the EFI motor.  To be honest, one part of me would like to move to EFI as I think my 302 is only rated at 135 horsepower.  But, that's a big elephant for me to bite off.  I looked on Edelbrock and Holley, none of their systems are legal in California (needs CARB - California Air Resources board signoff).  On the other hard, overall I'm trying to keep things stock.  In the future, who knows what will be necessary.  Maybe a full EFI swap off a newer truck will be necessary if I can find an intact system.

I didn't realize Holley etc had already done third party ECU development.  As an engineer, that sounds like a interesting yet painful thing to develop.

My main thing is I never want to be forced to take the truck off the road because a forty old 8 bit processor decided to finally bite the dust!

[ckuske]

OK, for future reference for anyone looking into this, it looks like newer engines can be installed, so installing an EFI motor into my truck for instance would be legal, as long as:

The donor motor is California (CARB) certified (meaning it was a CA motor originally, not a 49 state motor)

All of the emissions controls from the new motor are transplanted into the recipient truck

A smog referee signs off on the changes

After the conversion, the truck passes smog

https://bar.ca.gov/pdf/Smog_Check_Reference_Guide.pdf

[85lebaront2]

Recommendation would be a 1994 or newer engine as the 302s went to full roller cam and lifters then. If you go to a 1996 engine and controls you then get the OBD-II system. Transmissions changed also, the AOD was replaced by the AOD-E which went to the 4R70W/4R75W electronically controlled overdrive automatics. A lot of these are really not so much a different transmission as a different identification system.

[Rusty_S85]

85lebaront2 wrote

Recommendation would be a 1994 or newer engine as the 302s went to full roller cam and lifters then. If you go to a 1996 engine and controls you then get the OBD-II system. Transmissions changed also, the AOD was replaced by the AOD-E which went to the 4R70W/4R75W electronically controlled overdrive automatics. A lot of these are really not so much a different transmission as a different identification system.

If you plan on building your own you can go with 1985 302s I hear that was the start year for the roller 302 blocks.  But that would negate the whole transplanting of a late model system unless you go cobbling it all together piece by piece vs just buying everything from one vehicle.