Big Blue's Transformation

[Nothing Special]

Gary Lewis wrote

....  I told him a bit about while we were on the Disney cruise ....

Sorry for the completely off-topic tangent, but when and where were you on a Disney cruise?  Or how many have you been on?  My wife and I went on one for our 25th anniversary.  I figured it would be a once-in-a-lifetime experience for me (if you get my drift).  But we've been on 2 more together, plus two with my extended family (although I had to miss that one).  And we have another planned.

[Gary Lewis]

Bob!  Where have you been!  Missed you.

Ok, Disney Cruise: We took the family on a 5-night cruise in July for our 50th wedding anniversary.  Castaway Cay, Nassau, Castaway Cay, and then a day at sea.  It was wonderful!  (Janey and I went up the Inside Passage on a cruise for our 25th, and have subsequently cruised the Med, the Danube, and the Baltic.  We'll be doing more of that.)

Two years ago we had the whole family together at a lake in Arkansas to celebrate someone's 70th birthday.  We rented a very large house for the week and took our boat over so we could ski, swim, etc.

In fact, these biennial vacations have become something that Janey and I want to continue, so the one in 2021 is planned for some place close to the Million Dollar Highway.    And, recently Janey said "When we go up there let's take Big Blue and after the kids leave do the roads/trails around Ouray."    And we'll use someone's excellent trail report.

Jim - Yeah, I thought about stroking it.  But Scotty assures me that with the quench we'll have, even with "low nines" compression it'll run regular with no pinging.  And, get 12 - 13 MPG.  Plus it'll put out 380 - 390 HP and 500 lb-ft.

But, you have a point about u-joints and yokes.  If someone were to get on/off/on/off the throttle in a low gear it could wipe out lots of things pretty quickly.  So he needs to learn to drive stick before we get on the trails.

[ArdWrknTrk]

I only mentioned it because (as I've said) I have been beating the heck out of my truck and notice the clank getting worse.

I usually grease the entire undercarriage at every oil change, and haven't seen a sloppy U-joint, so I'm thinking TC slip joint output bushing, transmission mount, or pinion.
I'll have to look closer the next time im waiting for the pan to drain.

I like those numbers!   😈.
Don't let him ride the clutch or you will be looking at hard spotted flywheels and warped pressure plates.
No one wants to have to go there....

[Gary Lewis]

Good point on the clutch.  I'll watch that.

As for greasing, I think I'm going with the greaseless u-joints.  Said to last longer and be stronger w/o the zerk fitting.

[ArdWrknTrk]

In a blown diesel or a dragster.

I can understand the appeal of greaseless, but I see the chore as a chance to see if they're sloppy.

350 Hp and 500 Tq are NOT going to kill those joints unless you do something really stupid.

And then maybe it's best that you were stopped.

[Dorsai]

Gary Lewis wrote

As for greasing, I think I'm going with the greaseless u-joints.  Said to last longer and be stronger w/o the zerk fitting.

I did the same, for the exact same reason (not that my truck will see anywhere near the stresses Big Blue will).  Imagine my surprise when I received one of my greaseless joints, only to discover it was a greaseable joint with a small metal cap threaded in place of a zerk.

This was an SKF joint, other brands may be different.

[Nothing Special]

Gary Lewis wrote

Bob!  Where have you been!  Missed you....

I've been more lurking lately.  Family crisis took most of my energy for the past month (also the reason I had to miss the second extended family cruise a couple weeks ago).  So I've been coming on every few days, but just sort of keeping up, not really having much to contribute (not that I'm really contributing anything now ).  But things are settling down with a good trajectory, so it's a lot easier to breathe now!

Gary Lewis wrote

Ok, Disney Cruise....

Lesley and I have done two cruises in the Caribbean (but only stopped on Castaway once, too much wind on the other cruise) and one last spring out of San Diego to "the Mexican Riviera."  And my parents took our extended family (15 people) on a Baltic cruise in 2016 and an Alaska cruise a couple weeks ago.  Plus Lesley and I are planning to go through the Panama Canal in spring 2021!  All Disney Cruise Line.  Lesley has become a Disney freak (and I'm certainly a fan).  Plus there's this odd gift exchange thing that happens on Disney cruises.  Lesley is a crafter so she has a blast planning and making gifts for others, and then seeing what we get in return.  We're going to keep cruising, and I don't see us ever trying a different cruise line.

Gary Lewis wrote

Two years ago we had the whole family together....  In fact, these biennial vacations have become something that Janey and I want to continue....

Unfortunately I think that Alaska cruise will be the last of that for my extended family.  My dad is 86 and it wasn't very enjoyable for him (too hard to be a part of the group with his increasingly limited mobility and hearing).  He still talks about doing other types of extended family trips, but there haven't been any other ideas that appeal to almost everyone.  But with my "kids" at 23 and 25 the family will probably be extending in a different direction at some point...

Gary Lewis wrote

And, recently Janey said "When we go up there let's take Big Blue and after the kids leave do the roads/trails around Ouray."    And we'll use someone's excellent trail report....

And back to being able to contribute...  In about 3 weeks Lesley and I are hitting the road for Moab, Utah!  I've never been 'wheeling there, but I've read a lot about it and have been dreaming about it for years.  I'll be sure to report on that as well!

Gary Lewis wrote

But, you have a point about u-joints and yokes.  If someone were to get on/off/on/off the throttle in a low gear it could wipe out lots of things pretty quickly.  So he needs to learn to drive stick before we get on the trails.

One thing that's really nice about low gearing is the ability to get moving without touching the throttle.  Have your son practice starting out without touching the gas pedal.  In low range 1st gear it's EASY.  In fact, you can hold your right foot on the brake to keep from rolling off that cliff while you slip the clutch with your left foot.  As the revs start to drop you start to let off the brake.  Have him practice that (in a safe area, not necessary at the top of a cliff!), but it's a pretty easy thing to pick up with low gearing.  And it's easy on the equipment too!  (And adding a hand throttle so you can set the "idle" higher make it work even better.)

[Gary Lewis]

Jim - I hear what you are saying, but when I went out talking to people to rebuild the D60 the older gentleman told me to be sure to use the non-greaseable u-joints, that they'd last a lot longer.  But to me running new grease through to flush out whatever might have gotten in sounds like a better deal.  So I'm still debating.

Bob - Sorry about your family crisis, but glad things are settling down.

We've only done one Disney cruise, and the difference between that one and Viking, whom we've gone on twice, is night and day.  To stretch things, on Disney you are knee-deep in rug rats, and on Viking you are rubbing shoulders with the elderly.  So if we were to take the family it would be Disney.  But if we are getting away by ourselves or with the other couple who are about our age, it'll be Viking or somesuch as it is quieter and more relaxing.  Or, to put it another way, the one Disney cruise appeared to be to have fun through activities like swimming, and the Viking cruises were more to have fun by seeing things.  Both have their place, and it is just what you are looking for and whom you are going with.

As for Moab, you probably won't have seen it, but I posted somewhere that my nephew just got back from there.  They took their RZR's, but he's very confident that Big Blue would handle 90% of what they did and 100% of what I'd want to do.  He said there are side trails that test the abilities of the machine and/or driver, but that there's no need to do them, and BB'd be great on the rest.

And while my son (who is a member on here so I'd best be careful) talks about trying some of the rough stuff, if I can just get him to go with me on the basic trails and camp along the way I'd be thrilled.

So, I'll be anxious to see a similar report as last year's on Moab.  

And on the learning to drive, you have a good point about low gearing.  But the biggest problem he has is that he doesn't understand the concept of "the friction point", meaning bringing the clutch out to where it is slipping but providing enough torque to move the vehicle.  He seems to think the clutch is meant to be binary, so he just comes out on it.  And the low gearing tends to allow that.  It doesn't take much torque at the clutch to roll something when you have a 50:1 ratio.  It tends to be binary.  But in 2nd gear and Hi range it'll kill the engine if you do that.  (Maybe not in 1st though.)

Anyway, thanks.  He certainly needs to learn to drive BB before we get on the trail.  And, I do have a plan - a cunning plan.  If we have BB in CO, what if I take him out on just the country roads?

[Nothing Special]

We haven't found the number of kids on a Disney cruise to be a negative.  Although if you were on the Disney Dream I've heard that can be "worse."  The Dream goes on shorter (therefore cheaper) cruises that are easier for more families to afford, while the other ships tend to do longer (more expensive) cruises with maybe less families.  We've been on the Wonder 3 times (2 for me), the Magic once and the Fantasy once, but never the Dream.  I do get what you're saying about the "go to see" benefit of Viking cruises.  But for us we get to see as much as we want on Disney cruises, and the Disney character (and characters!) is a big enough benefit (especially for Lesley) that we're sticking with it.


When I was teaching my sons to drive a stick I used the Bronco.  It just had the stock 3 speed at the time, so you could certainly stall the engine if you let the clutch out too fast (in high range anyway).  But I used the hand throttle to set the idle up a little and made them get it rolling without touching the gas.  As they improved I'd set the idle lower until they could do it ay a normal idle speed.  They didn't understand the "friction point" at the start of that process, but they got it by the end!

And for what it's worth, I found that the phrase "let the clutch out smoothly" was counter-productive.  To them that meant to smoothly let the pedal up rather than pausing as it started to engage.  I never came up with a great phrase to use instead, but getting them to understand that you let it up until it starts to engage, then hold it there for a while before letting it the rest of the way up sort of defies a 5 word description.


Oh, and on the U-joints, you can go very high-end with rebuildable joints with journal bearings rather than rollers.  Probably not great for a rear driveshaft that turns all the time, but a lot stronger than conventional U-joints in a front axle.  But they do require more maintenance, so I haven't been tempted to go that route (unless / until I start breaking U-joints).

The non-greaseable conventional style are a lot less stout than the specialty rebuildable ones, but stronger than the conventional greaseable ones (unless they're still drilled but just plugged ).  And if you (or the future owner) is never going to service them they would be better.

But personally I have yet to break a U-joint, but I have had them wear out.  So I stick with the greaseable ones.  I've only had them wear out when I overtorqued a U-bolt, had a questionably treated U-joint that came with the truck, or had been in muddy water and wasn't diligent about servicing them after, so I'm not saying that wearing out is a big problem.  But given my experience I definitely think greaseable is the better choice for me.

[Gary Lewis]

Yes, we were on the Dream.  And we had probably 66% kids.  And, while that wasn't a problem since we had the grands with us who were contributing to the din, there is a stark contrast to the quietness of the Viking cruises.  But both have their places.

On the friction point, I like the idea of setting the idle up and teaching him to start w/o touching the throttle.  I'm hoping to use the PTO input on Big Blue which causes the ECU to raise the idle speed some, so perhaps that will work.

On the u-joints, I am still on the fence but understand your thoughts.  And, I agree that I've never broken a u-joint myself, so perhaps that's a bit of a red herring.

[Nothing Special]

Gary Lewis wrote

Yes, we were on the Dream.  And we had probably 66% kids....

We've never been close to that ratio.  Certainly less than 50% kids, probably less than 25%.  At those levels it's certainly not a negative to us, even when it's just us two empty-nesters going.  But yes, it's good that there are different cruise lines to cater to different things.

Gary Lewis wrote

On the u-joints, I am still on the fence but understand your thoughts.  And, I agree that I've never broken a u-joint myself, so perhaps that's a bit of a red herring.

Of course I've never had a big-block rock crawler either, and I certainly get that there are those who need something stronger.  But although poor clutch technique can certainly create more stress in U-joints, I think that most U-joint breaks are from poor technique with a different pedal that's two to the right from the clutch.  At least most of the breaks I've seen in YouTube videos seem to be preceded by a lot of exhaust noise, frequently some tire smoke and usually a bunch of hopping up and down.  I probably don't make it up quite as many climbs as I might if I had a heavier right foot.  But "driving elegant" was the mantra I used to read in the magazines, and it's certainly a much less expensive way to 'wheel, even if it isn't quite as exciting to watch.

[85lebaront2]

I remember when I was in the Marines that our gasoline engined 5 ton trucks had the front axle underdriven by 10% from the intermediate and rear axles. If you got them in loose sand they would actually start hopping as the 10% got taken up and the front would pull a bit then the two others would spin and the whole truck would just sit there with the axles spinning sand and everything that could move going bang,bang,bang. If the driver continued it could snap one of the axles.

[Gary Lewis]

Bill - I can imagine the bang that would accompany breaking an axle on a 5-ton vehicle.  

Bob - Yes, I've heard that letting things bounce with your foot in it is a perfect way to break things.  And that's not my style.  I do NOT want to break anything so will be sure to drive smoothly, and I'll teach my son how to drive smoothly as well.

[85lebaront2]

Yes, particularly the way tactical vehicles are rated, 5 tons cross country, 10 tons highway.

[Gary Lewis]

Yipes!  It's been 5 days since I posted here.  But, if you've been following the Sky's Offroad Design Super Duty RSK Install thread you know I've been busy there.  However, today I got that to enough of a stopping point that I could start cleaning the shop to get rid of all the mess that's happened with cutting, drilling, chiseling, etc.

But, before I started cleaning there were a couple of things I wanted to do to the truck that took some drilling and grinding, so I did them:

Smoothed the welding that WelderScott did, just to satisfy myself.  It isn't perfectly smooth, but it'll do very nicely.

Drilled the engine perches and frame out to take the proper bolts.  Both sides have two bolts through the frame and into the top of the perch.  But the perches have 5/8" holes while the frames have 9/16" elongated holes.  So I took the frame holes out to 5/8" to match the perches.

And, the driver's side perch has four bolt holes where it is to mount to the crossmember while the passenger's side has two.  On both sides the crossmember has 1/2" holes, but on the driver's side two of the holes in the perch were 1/2" and two were 7/16".  So I took those two out to 1/2".  And the passenger's side was already at 1/2".  So now the perches will bolt in very solidly, and when the time comes I can blast the red paint off of them and PC them black.

Meanwhile, back at the ranch I've had a running dialog with Scott The Mad Porter.  We've gotten things nailed down on what he's to put together and send me, so I just paid the down payment and he's going to get started.  Should put out 360 - 370 HP and 500 ft-lbs.  

[grumpin]

I gotta quit reading the Sky RSK installation.

Every bump I hit now jars me!

[ArdWrknTrk]

You're going to figure out what to do with the rear suspension.
F-350 lift blocks and 500 #' of torque are going to have those springs wrapping and hopping like crazy.

[85lebaront2]

Damn sounds like the specs for the 1970 Mark III dad inherited from his mother. I think it was 360 HP and 500 ft-lbs. Boy taking the Motorcraft 4300 off and installing a Holley R-4609 (C9AF-9510-U) which is a 1969 428CJ carb (a) brought it alive and (b) improved the fuel economy quite a bit.

[Gary Lewis]

Dane - I hope the view is worth the climb.  Don't give up on your rough ride just yet.  By the way, do you have sway bars?  If so, have you disconnected them?  That helped Big Blue's ride.  It went from brutal to very rough.

Jim - I hope to not have to go to the 350 blocks.  What I'm guessing I'll get in lift will just level the truck out with the current springs.  But, I REALLY want to soften the rear springs, so.....

[ArdWrknTrk]

Maybe Dave has some good ideas. He used to drag race, didn't he?

With air bags I just don't know where to go keeping it under control while maintaining articulation.

Slappers, maybe?  But you don't want anything that could hang you up.