Big Blue's Transformation

[Gary Lewis]

Cory - You drilled the braces to accommodate the existing holes?  Interesting.

By the way, it isn't too difficult to raise the cab ~4" to get those bolts out and relo them.  There was enough slack in the wiring harness on Dad's truck to allow that.

But I shouldn't have to do that this time as the braces I have are offset and are supposed to use the original top holes and then fit the crossmember itself when it is moved back to match up with the ZF5.


Jim - Big Blue was gross underneath and under hood when I started this transformation.  And I'm happy to say that's not the case now.  But tomorrow I'll have to melt the crud off the crossmember and braces so they match their new environment.

[Rembrant]

Gary Lewis wrote

Cory - You drilled the braces to accommodate the existing holes?  Interesting.

By the way, it isn't too difficult to raise the cab ~4" to get those bolts out and relo them.

Gary,
It was difficult at the time because the cab bolt mounts were all rusted and seized in place and I didn’t get to replacing all of that stuff until long after the transmission swap. The transmission swap was done partially out of necessity as the 3spd had a cracked case that was causing it to flex away from the bellhousing.
Yes I welded little extension on the brackets and redrilled the holes to work with the existing bolts. Finding the crossmember was a challenge enough I was not able to get my hands on a pair of the offset brackets.

[85lebaront2]

When I installed the E4OD in Darth, I had to drill new holes 7" back from where the C6 mounted. Bottom one was easy, top two were a PITA on each side. I used a long 1/4" bit after a good center punch to start the holes, then took them out to clear the bolts. I initially installed them inverted from Ford's procedure, and put nuts on the old bolts so they wouldn't rattle. Much later, when I was doing some other work, I had the front cab bolt covers off and decided to see if the bolts would come loose. They did and I was able with the radiator core support blots out to raise the cab front one side at a time and remove the old bolts and insert the new ones correctly from the top.

[Gary Lewis]

Bill - The E4OD is loooooong.  The ZF5 isn't that long.  I had to drill the new holes roughly 1" further aft from the original ones.  But, more on that in a bit.

I did, in fact, get the crossmember and gussets as well as the rear insulator (rear support), aka transmission mount, installed:

 


Now let's first talk about what components I used, as I tried lots of them before finding the right combo.  I used:

Crossmember: I forgot to cross reference the crossmember Jim sent me from the '95 SuperDuty, but the ID # on it is F4TF-LA, although the "5025" is left off.  None of the others I have were close to working, but this one just required a slot cut in it, as shown below, and the bottom frame holes re-drilled.

Gussets: Again I haven't cross-ref'd these to part numbers, but the ID # of the left one is E7TA 7F468-AA and the right one is E7TA 7R314-AA.  They are surely the ones from the '95 SuperDuty.
 But they fit the upper bolts in the frame perfectly and drop down just right on the crossmember when it is in the correct position.

Insulator/Mount: E7TZ 6068-C.  This isn't the absolute correct one for that crossmember, as you'll see, but it fits the transmission and didn't take much to adapt the crossmember to it.

Now to the crossmember.  Here's a shot of how the insulator/mount hits this crossmember, showing that the right stud would go through the slot, but not the left stud.




So I slotted the crossmember:




At this point it all fit together but I needed to mark and drill the new holes in the bottom flange of the frame.  I measured and measured and finally decided the direct approach was better.  In the pic below you can see that I brought the crossmember up under the frame, and it is held in place by the nuts on the insultor/mount and aligned by the gussets, which are snugged up to the top of the frame.  Then I marked the bottom of the frame through the bolt hole in the crossmember.




Then I drilled the holes.  As you can see below, the holes are roughly 1" aft of the original holes.  However, this crossmember is slightly shorter so the left hole is inboard a bit from the original hole.  But, it all fits.  

[salans7]

Is the front driveshaft going to clear that crossmember? Was the F-SuperDuty a 4x4?

[Gary Lewis]

Those are two good questions.  We won't know on the first one until I get everything together, but maybe Jim can answer the second one.

[salans7]

I think you may run into issues with driveshaft clearance. Here's the 4x4 equivalent to your crossmember.

[Gary Lewis]

Yipes!  You are probably right.  Do you have part numbers for that?  Maybe I'd better look for one.

[salans7]

Not that I saw in the thread that photo came from. It was just a discussion regarding ZF5 crossmembers and FSuperDuty versions and the consensus was that the FSD version was wrong and a Ford ZF5 4x4 crossmember was necessary to run a 4x4 ZF5.

[Rembrant]

Gary Lewis wrote

Crossmember: I forgot to cross reference the crossmember Jim sent me from the '95 SuperDuty, but the ID # on it is F4TF-LA, although the "5025" is left off.  None of the others I have were close to working, but this one just required a slot cut in it, as shown below, and the bottom frame holes re-drilled.

Insulator/Mount: E7TZ 6068-C.  This isn't the absolute correct one for that crossmember, as you'll see, but it fits the transmission and didn't take much to adapt the crossmember to it.

Now to the crossmember.  Here's a shot of how the insulator/mount hits this crossmember, showing that the right stud would go through the slot, but not the left stud.

Gary,

I wish I had been paying better attention, I probably could have warned you about this. I ran into the exact same issue with the M5OD-R2 5spd swap in my F150. I guess the same issue exists with the ZF-5.
For some reason, Ford changed the crossmember and rear transmission mount in 1994 (I believe). My M5OD was from a 1991 F250 2wd, so I just ordered a new rear mount for a 1991. My transmission crossmember I believe is a 1994. When I went digging into the part numbers on Rock Auto, I could see that they changed the rear mount in 1994. All the prior mounts had wider studs.

1994 Rear transmission mount:



1991 Rear transmission mount:



I wasn't in any kind of rush when I was doing it, so I just went to the auto parts and swapped my mount for a newer version. The transmission side of the mounts are all the same.

[Rembrant]

Picture of my crossmember...



You can actually see the difference between the two below. The 5spd crossmember holes are a little narrower than on my old 3spd crossmember.



Those mounting holes had been the same for a long time, so why they changed them in a 1994 I have no idea.

[salans7]

This truck *should* have the correct crossmember, but it isn't cheap.

1995 F250 Diesel/5SPD 4x4 crossmember

[ArdWrknTrk]

The F-450 (Superduty) has a huge forging for the front axle.
It's not 4x4, because the transmission output is used for the parking brake.

Oooh! That's a drag.   Sorry 😞

[ArdWrknTrk]

You're going to need the braces -and- the crossmember, it seems.
At least the left side one....


Personally, I'm in the "I've got a torch and I know how to use it!" camp.
But, I know you're not me.

[Gary Lewis]

Cory - Not your fault as I didn't mention the issue nor what I was doing until I was done.  The new mount I ordered is the old/wider style, but Rock Auto has them quite cheaply so I'll probably order in the right one once I get the right crossmember.

Shaun - Yipes!  That's expensive.  But thanks for finding it.  Shame they didn't show a picture of the crossmember so we'd know it is the right one.

And speaking of the right one, I think it is about time I invest in a 90's MPC.  It would help immensely to know what trucks that crossmember was used in.  Perhaps I could find one at a salvage locally - for less than $250.

Apparently what makes this more difficult is that I have an '85 with an '88+ transmission and a '95 front axle with a RSK and SuperDuty springs.  I'd been thinking that even the Bullnose crossmember should work - it did on Dad's truck.  But that truck had a standard ride height, and Big Blue is much higher.  

Jim - Thanks.  Back when you sent that crossmember there was no thought of a D60 and an RSK with SD springs.  Apparently that's where the problem arose - the extra height.

[ArdWrknTrk]

As I recall I was scrambling to strip that truck of what all was wanted before it went to the shredder.


I still don't see why you couldn't just modify whatever crossmember and brace you DO have.
It's certainly not a maintenance item or looking to get replaced once functional and in place.

[Gary Lewis]

I might be able to cut this one and weld something in to reinforce it.  Or I may decide to spend my time doing other things and spend money instead and get the "right" one.

But I think the big question is how much interference there will be and, therefore, how much cutting will be required.  So, I think the plan today will be to put the BW1345 in place and hold the double cardan shaft up there and find out.

My thinking is that right now is almost the worst possible interference.  The truck is on the lift with almost the max suspension drop.  The previous test shows that the shocks will let the front axle go down another 2" or so, but I think that would only happen in a situation where the axle is dropping rapidly, like in a jump.  Otherwise the springs should stop the travel where it is.  Right, guys?

[ArdWrknTrk]

First off, in the dynamic you envision I think the truck is moving away from the axle, not the other way around.

And shocks are dampers.
They don't "absorb shocks" they damp motion by restricting the rate of motion with fluid passages and turning that energy into heat.

Just replicate what you see there.
There is really no need to overthink this, and/or reinvent the wheel.

[Gary Lewis]

You are right, the truck is moving away from the axle.  And the shocks will slow the rise, but will also limit it should they reach their extents.

Anyway, was just wanting to make sure I'm not missing something - again.  

[ArdWrknTrk]

If someone were to have, say, a spare cross member... 🤔

I can easily see that center section added to the left, and then the brace being bent down to meet it.

But I guess I work cheap and want progress now, not waiting on someone else to either be truthful and follow through, or misrepresent themselves.