84 xlt starter issues after running for a few minutes

[bronco bill]

hello,
new member here. thank you in advance for any help you may offer.
i have a 1984 xlt with 351w and automatic transmission. just purchased it last week off auction.
after running engine/driving for a few minutes and then shutting it off, and the engine does runs strong, it won't turn over until a cool down period goes by.
battery has plenty of power, but starter turns super slow in this waiting time.
after it sits for a while it starts back up and turns strong.
outside temperature has ranged over the last week between 75 degrees Fahrenheit and 102 degrees Fahrenheit.
any historical known issues like the one above with these bullnose broncos and 351w engines?
regards to all,
Bronco Bill

[ArdWrknTrk]

Welcome to the forum!  

Nothing really, beyond the usual bad cables and starter.
I'd do a voltage drop test across each (+&-) cable.

I'm promoting you to 'Member' so you'll be able to post anywhere on the forum.

[bronco bill]

hello Jim,
thank you.
possibly bad cables, starter, bad connections seem to be what i read about most also.
much appreciated.
bill

[ArdWrknTrk]

I'm sure we have a tutorial on how to do a voltage drop test for resistance in the cables.
A regular ohm meter cannot put enough load on them to tell.

You would want to connect a volt meter to the ends of each cable (like a shunt) and then observe the voltage reading when you try jumping the starter at the fender relay.

Be sure the truck is in park, brake is on, wheel chocked and coil disabled when you do this.
Not to be a Safety Sally, but firing up your truck while under the hood is not usually what you want to do.

[Gary Lewis]

Welcome, Bill!  Glad you joined.  

Where's home?  I ask because we have a map (Bullnose Forum/Member's Map in the menu) and we'd be happy to add you if we had a city, zip, etc.

As for voltage drop testing, we do have a tutorial: Documentation/Electrical/Voltage Drop Testing.  But Jim's directions are correct.

But I'm guessing that you have a worn out starter.  The bearings/bushings in the starter wear and the clearances get really small when the starter is cold, but when it gets hot the clearances go away and the starter's armature drags.  This causes the engine to crank very slowly.

You can take the starter into your local parts store for testing, but their test doesn't always find the problem since the starter is cold.  But it is worth a shot.

However, if you are replacing the starter you may want to consider a permanent magnet gear-reduction starter.  Ford went to them in the years after our trucks were built, so you could get one for a later truck.  They have more power than the one your truck probably has.

[bronco bill]

thx again, great stuff to know.
will take care on the safety side for sure.

> On May 20, 2020, at 3:16 PM, ArdWrknTrk [via Bullnose Enthusiasts] <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> I'm sure we have a tutorial on how to do a voltage drop test for resistance in the cables.
> A regular ohm meter cannot put enough load on them to tell.
>
> You would want to connect a volt meter to the ends of each cable (like a shunt) and then observe the voltage reading when you try jumping the starter at the fender relay.
>
> Be sure the truck is in park, brake is on, wheel chocked and coil disabled when you do this.
> Not to be a Safety Sally, but firing up your truck while under the hood is not usually what you want to do.
>  Jim,
> Lil'Red is a '87 F250 HD, 4.10's, 1356 4x4, Zf-5, 3G, PMGR, Saginaw PS, desmogged with an Edelbrock 1826 and Performer intake.
> Too much other stuff to mention.
>
>
> If you reply to this email, your message will be added to the discussion below:
> http://forum.garysgaragemahal.com/84-xlt-starter-issues-after-running-for-a-few-minutes-tp61682p61707.html
> To unsubscribe from 84 xlt starter issues after running for a few minutes, click here.
> NAML

[bronco bill]

hi gary,
yucca valley,california is home.
just ordered a new starter off of summit.
with a heat shield blanket also.
cables as well. i will run the voltage drop test also. thx.
looks like bronco was pulled out of farm field in washington state.
powerwashed engine compartment, could be my last time buying a vehicle off of ebay!
i have my work cut out for me but am looking forward to it.
your help and time here is also appreciated.
glad i found the forum.
bill

> On May 20, 2020, at 3:30 PM, Gary Lewis [via Bullnose Enthusiasts] <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Welcome, Bill!  Glad you joined.  
>
> Where's home?  I ask because we have a map (Bullnose Forum/Member's Map in the menu) and we'd be happy to add you if we had a city, zip, etc.
>
> As for voltage drop testing, we do have a tutorial: Documentation/Electrical/Voltage Drop Testing.  But Jim's directions are correct.
>
> But I'm guessing that you have a worn out starter.  The bearings/bushings in the starter wear and the clearances get really small when the starter is cold, but when it gets hot the clearances go away and the starter's armature drags.  This causes the engine to crank very slowly.
>
> You can take the starter into your local parts store for testing, but their test doesn't always find the problem since the starter is cold.  But it is worth a shot.
>
> However, if you are replacing the starter you may want to consider a permanent magnet gear-reduction starter.  Ford went to them in the years after our trucks were built, so you could get one for a later truck.  They have more power than the one your truck probably has.
> Gary, AKA "Gary fellow": Profile
> Dad's: '81 F150 Ranger XLT 4x4: Down for restomod: Full-roller "stroked 351M" w/Trick Flow heads & intake, EEC-V SEFI/E4OD/3.50 gears w/Kevlar clutches
> Blue: 2015 F150 Platinum 4x4 SuperCrew wearing Blue Jeans & sporting a 3.5L EB & Max Tow
> Big Blue: 1985 F250HD 4x4: 460/ZF5/3.55's, D60 w/Ox locker in front & 10.25 Spicer/Trutrac in back, & EEC-V MAF/SEFI
>
>
>
> If you reply to this email, your message will be added to the discussion below:
> http://forum.garysgaragemahal.com/84-xlt-starter-issues-after-running-for-a-few-minutes-tp61682p61709.html
> To unsubscribe from 84 xlt starter issues after running for a few minutes, click here.
> NAML

[ArdWrknTrk]

That's entertaining. I'm surprised KR didn't go for the conga line comparison.  

But yes, most often a dragging starter is just that.
Cleaning and tightening cables will NEVER hurt, but you can't always see corrosion inside that causes a poor connection.

[Gary Lewis]

Bill - You are on the map.

By the way, you are posting via email.  That's your call, but it can bring with each post a lot of baggage.  If you log onto the forum and look you'll see that your posts have a lot of the previous post in them.  On some email systems you can click three dots on the page and see the baggage, and delete it if you want.  Or you can post via logging onto the forum.  Your call.

[bronco bill]

gary-will keep the replies on the forum format.
thx for the heads up.
bill

[Gary Lewis]

Which starter did you order?  I ask because if it is a PMGR unit you may want to change the wiring on the truck.  Read about that at Documentation/Electrical/PMGR Starter Wiring.

[bronco bill]

hello.
it is;
Powermaster Mastertorque Starters 9603
thx.
bill

[Gary Lewis]

That's a PMGR starter, so you may want to change the wiring.  It isn't required, but that starter has its own relay in it, so you can use the relay on the fender to trigger the one in the starter, as described on that page.

[ArdWrknTrk]

Gary,
That starter has a SOLENOID on it.

The truck has a relay on the inside of the fender.

The difference is that the relay is only making electrical contact.
The solenoid actuates a lever that engages the starter gear -and- at the end of its stroke the copper shoe makes contact, sending power to the motor.

[grumpin]

Welcome!

Could be timing advanced too far.

[bronco bill]

hello and thanks for the insight.
i have been reading about timing being a possible cause as well.
will check that out also.

[ArdWrknTrk]

It might be good to note whether your ignition timing is being retarded while the starter is engaged.

Do you have a DuraSpark or TFI ignition?

[Gary Lewis]

ArdWrknTrk wrote

Gary,
That starter has a SOLENOID on it.

The truck has a relay on the inside of the fender.

The difference is that the relay is only making electrical contact.
The solenoid actuates a lever that engages the starter gear -and- at the end of its stroke the copper shoe makes contact, sending power to the motor.

Very true.  

[FuzzFace2]

ArdWrknTrk wrote

Gary,
That starter has a SOLENOID on it.

The truck has a relay on the inside of the fender.

The difference is that the relay is only making electrical contact.
The solenoid actuates a lever that engages the starter gear -and- at the end of its stroke the copper shoe makes contact, sending power to the motor.

I have not looked at the wiring link but I don't see why it would make a difference if the large starter cable was moved to the other side of the relay on the fender with the battery cable and a 10ga wire run from the output of the trucks relay to the PMGR trigger lug.

This way the relay is only supplying trigger power to the PMGR starter unlike it was with the Ford factory set up.

My drag car's PMGR starter is wired this way and works great.
Dave ----

[Gary Lewis]

Yep, that's what our page shows: