3G alternator swap - v belt question

[ArdWrknTrk]

Doni.
Perhaps David or Matthew can answer?

I know the later 4.9's use the 8.25" C-C with their ridgid alternator bracket.
But I'm not certain as far back as 1981.

[Rusty_S85]

ArdWrknTrk wrote

I'm not really up on how much current an aftermarket fuel injection system requires but I'm sure it needs stable power.

Gary has pointed out how marginal these electrical systems were even when new.
After decades of heat and oxidation it is hardly up to the task.
Then you want or expect more modern features?

I certainly see this in my work renovating houses.
Putting in a 400A service and a new breaker panel will solve for some things.
Like central air or a hot tub, but it's just the beginning if you expect modern lighting or more than one outlet in a room.

At least I've gotten to where I have a 3G and a relay/power distribution center under the hood, and taken a bunch of load off the dash harness and switches.

Of course, the main fuse for the Holley Sniper for example is a 30A fuse, this not only supplies power for the FI itself but it also supplies battery power for the fuel pump itself via relay.  This is why I am looking for a differnt box than I currently got as I found one that would mount nicely on the flat part of my fender and has more relays and fuses and will accept up to a 12ga wire but its not water/dust proof which I really want.

Me I got my headlights running on a relay kit so more current intensive circuits are all isolated or will be isolated through this auxiliary box that I am going to piece together for my build.  The box I did find that isnt water proof nor dust proof it looks like it has a mega fuse mount that can supply the box as well as a holder for the fuse, if this is correct then something like this means I wouldnt have to have multiple boxes for my charge wire for the 3G and one for the relays and fuses I can just put them all in one box and mount it.  I feel its better to have more relays and fuses than you need cause you never know what you might want to add later on.  I could swap to LED auxiliary lights for example and put all six lights on one relay vs having three relays for all six lights.  But modern aftermarket EFI systems are not too big on power consumption but it does add up with more and more systems you add.  Like mine, CB radio with a CB Amp, then fuel injection with an electric fuel pump, then my two 100w driving lights and the possibility of adding four more 100w auxiliary lights on a roll bar if I go that route.  Really need to go with some more charging capability cause even though I have LED bulbs on all interior lights, that wont free up enough power to allow a 1G alternator to be capable of powering all my auxiliary systems at the same time.

This is the box I am looking at, I think it would be great for a 3G conversion as it appears to have the ability to house fuses capable of protecting the Alternator circuit.  Ive seen the box fuses that bolt down mounted in this area which are in 100A - 150A not sure what those are called and I recall I seen mega fuses bolted down as well but cant remember.  Down side to this box is no bottom and not water/dust proof.  Could make a flat plexiglass bottom and seal it but still doesnt resolve the vented lid.

[ArdWrknTrk]

Oh, that's nice!
I wouldn't be too concerned about it not being sealed myself.
I don't have a snorkel on my truck either!  

You make the point that I was trying to make to Bill.
Once you have the power (whether 3G or 400A) you direct it to the load you got it for.
But then to really take advantage of it, you end up rewiring the whole house doing updates.  

Getting a 3G and a Megafuse is just the tip of the iceberg.

[Gary Lewis]

ArdWrknTrk wrote

Getting a 3G and a Megafuse is just the tip of the iceberg.

Yuppers!  

[doni10]

so...

"
• 1966-1986 all engines use a 8.25-inch (mounting ear spacing) pivot-mount, V-belt 2G alternator; good donor vehicle is alternator from 1991-1992 non-DOHC Taurus’
• 1987-1997 4.9L (300)/7.5L (460) engines use 8.25-inch pivot-mount, V-belt alternator; good donor vehicle is alternator from 1991-1992 V-6 Taurus sedan/wagon
• 1987-1992 5.0 (302)/5.8L (351) engines use a 7-inch pivot-mount, serpentine-belt 2G alternator; good donor vehicle is 1993-1996 4.9L E/F-Series Vans or 1994-2000 V6 Mustangs
• 1993-1996 5.0 (302)/5.8L (351) engines use 7” side-mount, serpentine-belt 95-amp 3G alternator; good 130-amp donor vehicle is 1996-1998 4.0L V6 Explorer  "

damn!

have the 7".... need the 8.25"

[ArdWrknTrk]

The later efi 460's use a 7" mount.  (Ask Gary)

The 8.25" alternators are found on '91-'94 3.8L V-6 as found in Taurus/Sable/Continental.
(A Lincoln is likely to have a white LRC regulator)

[Rusty_S85]

ArdWrknTrk wrote

Oh, that's nice!
I wouldn't be too concerned about it not being sealed myself.
I don't have a snorkel on my truck either!  

You make the point that I was trying to make to Bill.
Once you have the power (whether 3G or 400A) you direct it to the load you got it for.
But then to really take advantage of it, you end up rewiring the whole house doing updates.  

Getting a 3G and a Megafuse is just the tip of the iceberg.

It is, only reason I would want water/dust proof is I tend to wash under my hood once a year and I dont cover anything so for me it would be preferable to at least be water proof.

I do like it because it isnt priced too horribly its not too big at 7.7" x 4.7" x 3.2" dimensions and it does have the ability to hold 10 5-pin relays, 15 ATC/ATO fuses and 3 of those square fuses it looks like not sure the name but I know they make those mini mega fuses that might be ok to use.

Only thing I am partially concerned about would be running a charge wire into this box to connect to the fuse on the under side and then have my sniper wiring coming through here as well, many swear about RFI being a big problem but many also claim if you hook the positive and ground directly to the battery you shouldnt have a problem with RFI.

[85lebaront2]

Rusty, if you are willing to look at other than Ford for PDCs, several come to mind, Some GM products have a pretty nice modular unit that the harnesses are attached with bolt on plugs and it is at a minimum relatively dust proof. Another is the one I am using on my 1986 Lebaron convertible, it is used in a number of Chrysler vehicles in the 90s and early 2000s. It has provision for 9 maxi fuses and 10 micro fuses, 4 large Bosch mini (square can) relays and 8 micro (small rectangular can) relays both of which are rated 10 amp NC contacts and 20 amp NO contacts.

Stud is the battery connection, each relay and fuse section is covered with a snap down lid.

[Rusty_S85]

85lebaront2 wrote

Rusty, if you are willing to look at other than Ford for PDCs, several come to mind, Some GM products have a pretty nice modular unit that the harnesses are attached with bolt on plugs and it is at a minimum relatively dust proof. Another is the one I am using on my 1986 Lebaron convertible, it is used in a number of Chrysler vehicles in the 90s and early 2000s. It has provision for 9 maxi fuses and 10 micro fuses, 4 large Bosch mini (square can) relays and 8 micro (small rectangular can) relays both of which are rated 10 amp NC contacts and 20 amp NO contacts.

Stud is the battery connection, each relay and fuse section is covered with a snap down lid.

I got one from a toyota I think or something put up but its too big for fitting im currently looking aftermarket.  I found LittleFuse actually sells these POWR-BLOK Modular Power Distribution pieces to build your own.  I need to do some more digging to see if they sell generic boxes in different sizes to fit those modular pieces.  If not I think I could get a weather sealed plastic project box for electrical projects and fit it inside that and just make what I need.  I really personally dont need 10 relays 8 would give me two more relays than I need and would allow me to fit four more auxliary lights which is about the only electrical add on I am contemplating of doing.

The link that Im on currently.

https://www.littelfuse.com/products/fuse-blocks-fuseholders-and-fuse-accessories/powr-blok-modular-power-distribution.aspx

I really like the idea of having ATO/ATC fuses to match the OE so I only have to keep a few fuses in my glovebox of the same type.

[85lebaront2]

Nice, they make good products! Now the magic question, where do you buy them, do they sell direct or only through another source.

[ArdWrknTrk]

Waytek sells Littelfuse and Eaton/Bussman

https://www.waytekwire.com/products/1369/Power-Distribution-Modules/

[85lebaront2]

Excellent! good to know. I got lucky between P-n-P and Pete's I have two of those Chrysler PDCs from different cars.

[Rusty_S85]

Bunch of the items are on Amazon and other sites.  Only problem I am having is trying to find a plastic project box that is the right interior dimensions.  I really would like a black ABS plastic box so I wont have to coat it, it would eventually fade into matching my plastic fenders.  Closest I found is two different sizes one is 7.1" x 7.1" exterior and the other is 6.3" x 6.3" exterior.  What I figured is I would need either a 6" x 6" interior space or I could re arrange and get the assembly to be 4 1/2" x 9" or if I opt out of the mounting modules and go with the snap on side mounts I could squeeze it down to 4 1/2" x 7 1/2".

The one I was looking at that is 6.3" x 6.3" x 3.5"

https://www.hammfg.com/files/products/1554/1554srb.jpg

I like the idea of going this route cause I could mark the project box through the inner fender and drill holes and attach the box to my inner fender using existing holes.  Down side is it wont look as professional and will require a phillips headed screw driver to take the lid off as I havent been able to find a latching lid that has a interior dimensions a little more than 6" x 6".

Why I am seriously looking back at using the one I found posted above that isnt water proof.  Could get a flat piece of plexiglass to bolt through existing holes in the fenders then could use screws to screw the top down to the plexiglass itself to seal the bottom up.  Probably would be cheaper considering I could get the premade box for under $60 and I havent priced the modules but I think the modules with the project box would be over $60.  But I can get a double maxi fuse module and hook my 3G charge wire to a 100A Maxi fuse then pull the charge wire right back out of the box and attach either directly to the battery or directly to the solenoid.  Or I could attach it back to the four stud module that I would want to run to allow to make positive and negative attachments inside the box to and then can run a single wire to the battery itself for positive and for negative.

[ArdWrknTrk]

If you know someone with a 3D printer it's trivial to get whatever box you want.
So long as it fits within the stage.

It might take some time to print depending on volume and infill, but it would be exactly what you want.

[Rusty_S85]

Of course, can make anything with a 3D printer just about.  I just have to make a decision for myself.  I can free up one relay on the box I currently have by merging my low and high beam relays into one relay by using the center pin for low beam and have the relay triggered by the high beam.  This would reduce the low beam trigger wire from my harness and save me some money in the long run by not having to buy as much SLX Crosslink wire for my rewire job.

But the problem is still there even with freeing up one relay I would still need two free relays if I do install a roll bar with four KC Daylighter lights.  I couldnt run all four off one relay as at nominal battery voltage its 31A and a mini 5 pin relay is rated for 30A.  At 14.3V which is what the 3G regulator is set for I would be borderline at 28A.  I could go with the LED Daylighters but they all are spot beams and from the reading Ive done, sounds like they have a narrower beam pattern than even the halogen spot lights.  Which wont work for me as I had planned on flood lights on the outside and spot lights in the middle.

I talked with one guy on youtube that has that panel I posted above he said it was ok but wasnt that great for him since its not really water proof.  Im starting to wonder if I should just go with that and then water proof that by installing a plexiglass backer after I wire everything up.  Down side to doing this it would make it hard to add circuits at a later date.  But I could also just simply coat the back side of the terminals I have used with silicone to seal the terminals themselves.  At least with silicone you could still disassemble the terminals with some force.

[Gary Lewis]

Rusty_S85 wrote

.... I can free up one relay on the box I currently have by merging my low and high beam relays into one relay by using the center pin for low beam and have the relay triggered by the high beam. ....

If I understand what you are saying correctly, that would still put all of the low beam's current through the headlight switch, just like before.

[ArdWrknTrk]

He's saying to use 87 & 87A to toggle between high and low.
85 is trigger and 86 is ground.
Power is still 30, but there is no "off"

Cory lives in Canada.
Ask him about DRL's.


Rusty,
My battery terminals aren't waterproof. My alternator isn't waterproof. My coil isn't waterproof and my carb isn't waterproof.
I don't have a snorkel.
If my truck goes under hydrolocked is going to be my biggest problem, not any of the other crap that gets soaked.

Think about that.....

[Gary Lewis]

That's my point, Jim.  I played with relay layouts a lot back when I was planning my harness and could not find a way to have full functionality with one relay.  And I tried.

But, if it can be done I'd sure like to know how.  It would make things easier, for sure.

[ArdWrknTrk]

I DO have a dual Hella relay where you can cascade the outputs, but it doesn't save much space over two.

[Rusty_S85]

Gary Lewis wrote

Rusty_S85 wrote

.... I can free up one relay on the box I currently have by merging my low and high beam relays into one relay by using the center pin for low beam and have the relay triggered by the high beam. ....

If I understand what you are saying correctly, that would still put all of the low beam's current through the headlight switch, just like before.

The way I was thinking was using the center pin but thinking about it now it wouldnt work as doing it the way I thought of would mean the low beam would be on all the time unless I use another relay to break the power to the single relay which means I still end up with one relay for low beam and one for high beam.

So I am still in the same point and would need a 8+ relay box to allow me room for expansion for more auxiliary lighting or if I decide to use a key hot for the sniper that is hot in crank as well as a trigger for a relay to supply straight battery voltage to the sniper at least this way the hand unit would actually show battery voltage and not battery voltage through the ignition switch.