1985 F350 460 vs 1989 E350 460 engine

[khaitan]

Hello experts, you may have seen me (Prashant) on the ford enthusiastic forum. I have a 1986 F150 4x4. I had swapped the 302 with a 460 from a 1989 E350. I had a zf-5s42 behind it and it didn't even last me 5000 miles. I am currently dropping a zf-5s47 core that I found in GA at Midwestern Transmission in MN for them to rebuild it. This 47 will go behind the 460 in the F150.

I also got a little crazy :P and picked up a 1985 dual cab F350 4x4 with a 460 and T19 transmission in it from Portland, Oregon. I was driving it to GA and the engine blew out on me in Kansas on 70. I got it towed to Salina and picking it up on Sunday after dropping the transmission in MN.




So now I have two non working trucks. Since the transmission is likely to get delivered to GA sometime during the week of October 2nd and I leave for India on the 4th, I wont have the time to put the transmission in my red truck and get it running. Therefore, I was thinking of putting the tuned and ready to go 460 from my red truck into the F350 and get it running before I leave for India. It will be ideal to have one truck running so at the very least I have a mode of transportation upon my return after 3 months.

Talking to my mechanic in GA, he suggested that I shouldn't put the 89 460 in F350 because the 85 engine has 10:1 compression stroke vs 89 460 has 9:1. (I may not be stating exact technical word but definitely recollect the ratio he shared with me). According to him, I should rebuild the 85 460 engine and keep it in the F350. I am ok with that but this doesn't let me get one truck running before I leave for India. I am wondering if I can get some guidance on what route I should go.

Cheers,
Prashant

[85lebaront2]

First, I don't know where your mechanic got the compression figures, the 85 engine unless it has been redone is 8.5:1 compression, the 89 is maybe 8.7:1 compression. I assume you converted the 89 engine to carbureted, or you had the entire EFI system installed.

If the 89 engine was already converted to carbureted the biggest issue you will run into is the exhaust, the manifold outlets on the EFI engine are angled differently than the carbureted engine ones (ask me how I know this) meaning you would either need part of the exhaust system you have in the F150 or would need a new front section made (exhaust on the crew cab is in 3 sections).

[khaitan]

Very good point, I was considering going headers and the F350 needs a new exhaust anyway. To answer your first question, it has been carbureted. I did not install the EFI system, as a matter of fact there is no way on earth I could have done that :P

So thats completely off and then he must be talking about something else. According to you, what is the difference between the 460 from 85 to the 460 in 89 other than the exhaust manifold?


Cheers,
Prashant

[Gary Lewis]

Prashant - Are you looking for the internal differences, like pistons and heads, or specification differences?  I would think it is the specifications you are wanting. And basically I think Bill has given you want you need - there is only a slight compression ratio difference and the heads require a different exhaust.

To me that means you can swap the two engines, but will need to swap the exhaust manifolds and the y-pipe of the exhaust system as well. That may cause a problem as the y-pipe may not come off of your red truck easily, and it may not bolt up to the existing exhaust in the blue truck. But, I think you said the blue truck needs a new exhaust system anyway, so that shouldn't be a big problem. Right?

Bill - Will there be a problem bolting the earlier accessories to the later engine?

[85lebaront2]

Externally, the differences will be fuel pump, EFI timing cover has no provision for a mechanical pump, pad is there, but is unfinished and no opening to the inside. Water pump, 85 and 89 are the same PN, accessory brackets, front of driver's side head on carbureted engine has 1 1/2" bolt hole, EFI has a 7/16" bolt hole in the same location. Timing pointer (and possibly cover) on EFI engine is curved to clear the lower mounting point on the alternator/air pump bracket.

Belts, as long as you use all of the pulleys and belts as a set (crank, water pump, power steering, A/C and alternator) you won't have any problem with stuff fitting, alternators are the same, just different positions and the back may need to be rotated. Power steering pumps, if the EFI engine has the Saginaw pump then the Ford pump will not fit the bracket, A lot of it depends on how the EFI engine was originally set up when it was installed in the F150.

[PetesPonies]

Everything from one engine will bolt to the other, as long as you use the complete assemblies. Mixing and matching parts could be a problem only found out once you have some things installed. Stripe both engines to the long blocks, then swap everything over.

[khaitan]

I was just curious what the technical difference is to relate considering what the mechanic told me. But I am set and should be good with the swap.

I probably cant go long headers because of the 4 wheel drive. So shorty is the way to go, have you or anybody played around with the headers that can go with 4 wheel drive F150 and F350. I do see the room in the F350 but I barely have any room between the engine and chassis in the F150.

[khaitan]

Gotcha, thank you. None of this will happen because I am taking the whole engine as is and dropping it in the F350. I am not going to swap anything.

One question though, when I rebuild the 460, I want to bring it up 450 HP. Is that too much power for the Zf 5s-47 and 3.5 gear in the front and back end?

[khaitan]

Taking the complete set and dropping to avoid unnecessary hassle.

[Gary Lewis]

First, didn't I tell you that you would get good answers here?  😉

Second, driveline components are rated in the amount of torque they can handle, not HP. As said, the ZF5-47 is rated at 470 ft-lbs. Tim Meyer got my 400 to 498 ft-lbs so the 460 can be up in that range pretty easily. I don't know the torque rating of the 10.25" differential that your Blue truck probably has, but it should be something like that as well.

But, you probably don't have enough traction to keep the tires from spinning long before you get to that limit. Perhaps if you had the bed heavily loaded. But even attaching a trailer won't do it as my 2015 F150 will easily spin the tires from a stop with our boat attached.

So, my opinion is that you'll be fine. Ford put the ZF5-42, with a 420 ft-lb rating behind both the 460 and the diesel, and I think even the turbo diesel.

[PetesPonies]

Different years, different setup based on fuel injection, verses carburetor, means swapping the entire engine as a unit, may be a problem.

[85lebaront2]

Considering that Darth can light all 4 rear tires with a very low compression (right now) 460 and 3:55 gears, I would say you shouldn't have too much problem with power. As for header clearance, ask Gary about long tube headers on a 4WD 460.

[Gary Lewis]

Here's what Bill is expecting me to say: DO NOT INSTALL HEADERS!!

Big Blue has the Cadillac of headers, L&L's, with a 1/2" flange and really thick tubing. And a $600 price tag. And yet they sit against the frame. 😡

I'm going to raise the driver's side 1/4" to fix that problem, but the fact is that essentially the best and most expensive header out there does not fit 1985 trucks with a 460.

[85lebaront2]

Gee are you telling me that I can't put EFI accessory brackets on a carbureted 460? I'm glad you told me, because I guess maybe I'm like a bumblebee, NASA proved that there is no way a bumblebee can fly, the wings are too small for the body weight, but the bumblebee doesn't know that so just bumbles along oblivious to that fact.

When I started the process of converting my 1986 F350 from carbureted with a C6 transmission to MAF/SEFI and an E4OD transmission, I decided to do the A/C system and other accessories first so things would be fitted in place. I ran the truck for a couple of months with the FS-10 compressor, the high mount alternator and non-adjustable power steering pump mount. I had to enlarge the bottom inside hole in the A/C and power steering bracket casting so I could use a 1/2" bolt there. I also found a slight interference with the lower air pump and alternator bracket and the timing pointer. Since my truck had the hot fuel handling package there was no mechanical pump, just a block off plate on the timing cover, I went ahead and just put the EFI timing cover on at that time. I used a Y in the line from the EFI air pump to connect where my two original pumps had been. Eventually, I installed the whole top of the EFI engine on my short block, unfortunately it only has about 8:1 compression due to having the deep dished pistons and large combustion chambers (that is to be remedied shortly I hope).

[khaitan]

Ha ha ha I had no doubt that about it :P

Sounds good. I will go ahead and do the swap and get the blue truck running. Thank you again for the help.

[khaitan]

ha ha ha fair enough. That really sucks though, wish someone figured out a way to build a header for these trucks.

[khaitan]

ok thank you so much.

[Gary Lewis]

Bill - Thanks for the explanation. Looks like Prashant can do the swap with either set of accessories, but probably easiest to just use the ones on the truck.

Prashant - How's the trip going?

[PetesPonies]

I have FPA headers on my '68 1/2 R Code Mustang. They aren't cheap either, but you definitely get what you pay for with these. Well built, hang no lower than the frame rails, etc. I do know they make a 429/460 headers, but certainly have no experience with it. But maybe something to check out.

[Gary Lewis]

I just got a call from Prashant.  He's dropped the ZF5 off in MN to be rebuilt, and is now 100 miles west of KC headed to Salina, KS to pick up the truck.  The hope is that the truck will run long enough to get it on the trailer.  Then he'll head south and hopes to drop by here tomorrow on his way back to GA.

Here's the trailer he's using, which is rather tall so he's going to have a great deal of wind drag with that F350 sitting on it.  But, not to worry - note what he's towing it with.  And, check out the mother-in-law seat.