Nothing Special's Ouray Colorado Trip, 2018

[Nothing Special]

In this thread Gary was asking for advice / recommendations about fourwheeling in the Ouray area.  I was scheduled to spend 5 days 'wheeling near Ouray (with a "bonus" day on Spring Creek Trail near Denver) right after he started that thread, so this is pretty fitting!  In this thread I'll give my trip report (flavored slightly by the idea that Gary might be driving these trails in a full-size truck).  And of course I welcome discussion in this thread.  But I'll put my more specific recommendations to Gary in his thread, after I finish this trip report.

In this first post I'll give an overview, then I'll follow up with more specifics and more pictures from each day.

This ended up being our first "empty nest" 'wheeling trip.  Our kids (ages 22 and 24 now) have gone with us on all of trips up to last year, but lives got in the way this year, so it was just my wife and me in my '71 Bronco.

I've 'wheeled Spring Creek Trail 4 times before ('87 in a friends stock '87 YJ, '93 in my old '71 CJ5, '94 in my old stock '85 F-250 and '00 in the CJ5 again).  It was my first experience fourwheeling so it holds a special place for me, and I wanted to try it again (turns out it's changed a LOT!).  My wife's favorite family 'wheeling location was Ouray in 2000, and she wanted to go back there for a second time.  So we had our itinerary.

This was also the first time I've had a front locker.  I've had a Detroit in the rear axle of both my old CJ5 and my Bronco, but I've always had an open front until putting an OX locker in the front of the Bronco this spring.  I LOVE IT!  I'd lock it before trying a climb that I though might need it (or after failing once), or before a descent where I thought I might lift a front tire and lose traction for compression braking.  I never really had trouble maneuvering with it locked (although it is a LOT harder to turn the steering wheel when it's locked and I'm not moving).  And I didn't have much trouble with it hanging up when I tried to disengage it (it occasionally took a slight turn or two before it would disengage, but it was never a problem).

So on to the trip...  We towed the Bronco out behind our motorhome.  Everything went really well with that.  Here we are at the top of Monarch Pass on our way to Ouray.


We stayed at the Ouray KOA just north of town.  That ended up being a good location and a pretty nice campground as well, with trees and a little space between sites (some campgrounds around Ouray look a lot like parking lots full of motorhomes and Jeeps).


The mix of vehicles we saw was interesting.  In the first couple of days I saw mostly JKUs, with JLUs probably being second (all of the rentals are JLs).  There were also a lot of early Broncos in town (but I never saw any other on the trails).  Turns out there was a Bronco club from Texas there that week.

There were also a lot of full size Jeeps in our campground (I never saw them on the trails).  Mostly Wagoneers with Cherokee/J-truck grills.  Turns out there was a FSJ invasion that week as well.

And later in the week we saw mostly FJ Cruisers, with FourRunners probably coming in ahead of the JKs.  Turns out there was an FJ Summit event in Ouray then too!  This all combined to make the trails rather crowded, and we did have to wait in line at times.  But the waits were never that bad.

The only fullsize trucks I saw were the tour "jeeps" that you can buy rides in (mostly French trucks).  (I don't count fullsize Jeeps as fullsize trucks, they are noticeably smaller than other fullsize tricks.  But I didn't see any of them on the trails anyway.)

And there were always lots of ATVs, especially side-by-sides (ATVs probably outnumbered trucks).

I'll follow up with day trip reports as I can get time.

[Nothing Special]

One thing that's very useful on these trails is a good map or two.  I have an Uncompahgre National Forest map what is good with lots of detail.  But sometimes too much detail is a problem.  Below are a couple of maps with very little detail, pretty much just the trails.  I wouldn't rely only on them, but sometimes it's easier to find things on a map with no clutter.

The top map is sort of the entire area.  The lower one is zoomed in to the area I spent most of my time (not including Black Bear and Imogene, but they show up well on the first map).

In both maps the trail colors just indicate different trails, with the trail names in (roughly) the same color as the trail.  All of the colored trails are actual tracks from my GPS.  The black tracks are estimates from the electronic map I have.  They should be pretty good, but I don't guarantee the accuracy, and I have little idea what the trails are like (although I think most of them are pretty easy).

Towns are listed by name, and I show where we found restrooms on the trails (important when you are traveling with your wife!).  There are a few places on the top map where I couldn't get the marker or label in the right place, so I use a white line to show where it really goes.

[Nothing Special]

Ouray - Day 1: Engineer Mountain Road - Mineral Point - Animas Cutoff - Cinnamon Pass - Sherman Road - Cinnamon Pass - California Gulch - Hurricane Pass - Corkscrew Pass - Corkscrew Gulch

Over the last couple of 'wheeling trips my younger son has gotten a lot better, first as a driver but then also as a spotter.  But without him on this trip my wife said she wanted to be eased into the 'wheeling: no Black Bear or Poughkeepsie until she felt comfortable.  So we started with a pretty easy day.  Most of the trails are on the Alpine Loop which they send tourists on in stock vehicles.

Engineer Mountain Road starts up from Highway 550 a few miles up from (south of) Ouray.  As it turned out, there was a landslide a week or so before we got there that had closed 550.  They had one lane open by the time we were there, and Engineer Mountain Road started from one end of the one lane section, right where they were doing road work.  Add people airing down, or unloading ATVs and it was pretty crowded at the trail head!

Engineer Mountain Road is probably the roughest, most difficult section of the Alpine Loop.  It's not really technical anywhere, but I did drag my diffs a few places when I stopped paying attention.  There were also a couple of places where an optional line made it a little more interesting, and even one that I agreed not to try without my son's help.  It's biggest challenge is that, like most trails in the area, it's a two-way trail that's not wide enough for 2 vehicles.  It generally works out though, as people realize you're all in the same situation and usually someone is close enough to a wide spot to make it work.  Overall it seemed like a nice "beginner 'wheeling" trail, and was fun and scenic enough for us as well.








Mineral Point is a side trip near the top of Engineer Mountain Road.  It went by an old mine and then connected back to the main trail (but unfortunately missing the restroom that's on Engineer Mountain Road).  Nothing very challenging on the trail (the part of the main trail that it bypasses isn't hard either).




Animas Cutoff might not be the official name, but it's the trail that comes off Engineer Mountain Road where it starts up Engineer Pass and heads down to the ghost town of Animas Forks.  It's an easy dirt road, narrow and rough enough to keep the speed down, but no challenge.

Cinnamon Pass splits off the Animas Cutoff just above Animas Forks.  Like the Animas Cutoff, it's too rough to go fast and too smooth to be fun.  Unlike the Animas Cutoff, it's long.  We drove 12 miles in 1.5 hours each way.  My wife thinks I picked such a long, boring trail to make her agree to do more "interesting" trails like Poughkeepsie  and Black Bear!  Actually I was just exploring trails I'd never been on.  In Cinnamon Pass's defense, it is scenic, and for people who aren't into challenging 'wheeling it's a good way to get above treeline.  And it's one of two ways (Engineer Pass being the other) to get from Lake City into these trails.  So if anyone else wants to take Cinnamon Pass I won't stop you.  But my wife will stop me!

Sherman is a mine site on the east side of Cinnamon Pass, with a trail going south west up into a gulch.  We drove up it about 3.5 miles before my wife realized that it was a dead-end and we were going to end up backtracking it before going back over Cinnamon Pass.  Not a lot of challenge, and it was all below treeline, so no big vistas.  Again I wouldn't give this a very hearty recommendation, but I won't try to stop you either.

There's another side trail off Cinnamon Pass that goes up American Basin  I was going to explore that as well, but my wife said "no".  So we backtracked over Cinnamon Pass (another 1.5 hours) to Animas Forks.

After using the restroom in Animas Forks we took California Gulch, Hurricane Pass, Corkscrew Pass and Corkscrew Gulch back to highway 550.  Again not a lot of challenge, but it's the only way (other than going back on Engineer Mountain Road) to get back to Ouray.  Not a bad drive (about 11 miles in 2.5 hours compared to 9 miles in 2.5 miles for Engineer Mountain Road).

Looking up California Gulch:


Looking from Hurricane Pass toward Corkscrew Pass


Looking down the top part of Corkscrew Gulch

[Gary Lewis]

I'm ready to go!!!    But Big Blue isn't.    So much I want to do to him before we go.

Anyway, I absolutely LOVE the pics.  Stunning scenery!  Inspiring.  

As for the crowds, it does sound sorta busy, especially with the clubs there.  However, we will probably go a bit later in the year and hope many people will be home from their vacations.

I do have a few questions.  What are JKU's and JLU's?  And what is "Est" on the map?  And you saw a lot of Wagoneers?  And why the Cherokee/Jeep-truck grills on them?  Is that an upgrade of some sort?

The maps are a huge help.    It is difficult to get my head around all the different trails, but having things laid out in the thread helps significantly.  Thanks.

Anyway, patiently awaiting MORE!

[Nothing Special]

Ouray Day 2: Black Bear Road and Imogene Pass

On day 2 my wife wasn't ready for Poughkeepsie, but she OK'd Black Bear!  As we discussed in Gary's thread, Black Bear is infamous for being an extremely dangerous shelf road with extremely tight switchbacks.  Does it deserve the reputation?  I had an opinion from when I ran it the first time 18 years ago, but I really wanted to experience it a second time, and see if the experience was similar to the first time.

Black Bear Road starts at the summit of Red Mountain Pass on highway 550, so not a long drive from Ouray.  A group of about 10 Toyotas (mostly FourRunners, but a few FJ Cruisers thrown in) were starting up as we pulled off to air down.

The trail up to the top of the pass is pretty easy (3.3 miles / 42 minutes).  There was one optional line at about 2.9 miles (just below the pass) that was a steeper, rockier climb.  The step at the top was a little too tall and steep for me to attempt with just my wife along, so we turned around and took the main trail the rest of the way up.


At the top of the pass we caught up with the Toyotas.  We chatted a little and I learned that they had a broad range of experience.  One guy (Justin Fort) is a writer for Off-Road.com with a lot of experience, and there were others like him.  But there were also some who had never done anything like this and had to be talked into it to begin with.  I was thinking about trying to jump ahead of them, but they were getting ready to start down from the pass about as we got up, so I wasn't rude.


The trail down the bowl on the back side of the pass was a little more challenging that I remembered (probably more a testament to my memory than a reflection on the trail).  Definitely not technical, but a few places where you could get a little tippy if you didn't pay attention to how you turned into a hole.  The last section of this, where it gets a little more "interesting", is called "The Steps" (still not hard to get through, but will get the attention of a beginner).

Edit to add in December 2021:  I finally started a YouTube channel, so here's a short video clip of driving down "The Steps" at the bottom of this bowl:



We caught the Toyotas near the bottom of the bowl.  Following them down was fine until they started going around "Adios Curve" (which I learned is the at least semi-official name of the start of the "fun" section).  Some of the greener drivers were starting to look pretty green!  We saw one climb out of his vehicle (still a few car lengths above Adios Curve) and lay on the ground for a while!  After about a 20 minute delay there we were able to get started.  They stopped at the first switchback, and on the wide section right after that and let the backed up traffic pass them.  Including the 20 minute delay it took about 1:20 to drive the 3.3 miles from the pass down to Adios Curve.

The picture below shows one of the Toyotas staged just above Adios Curve.  It looks tipped down a lot in the picture, and when you look at the background you can see that the camera is tipped down too!  The trail is pretty steep there!  What I remembered most from my first time on Black Bear was the huge adrenaline rush as I went around Adios Curve, down to and around the first switchback.  By that time I had settled down.  This time, even 18 years later, there really was no rush like that.  It was still fun, but I wasn't at all spooked.  I still get why people do freak out on it, especially the first time.  But I felt like I knew what to expect and it wasn't that big a deal.


Below Adios Curve are the switchbacks.  They are tight, requiring me to back up once on almost all of them.  That's another place that novice drivers (or passengers) can freak out.  You need to pull far enough forward that you can't see the edge over your hood to have enough room to back up and complete the turn.  And on a couple of the switchbacks the trail is twisted enough that you might cross up if you make your turn at the wrong time (18 years ago I saw a TJ need to engage a locker to back up on the second switchback).  It doesn't seem to be an issue for most, and certainly wasn't for me with my rear Detroit.  There was a "tour bus" behind us on the trail, a fullsize Chevy standard cab shortbox that had been converted to carry a bunch of passengers in the back.  The (very experienced) driver had no trouble getting that truck down either, and he said that they also have longbox trucks for when they have a bigger group.

The trail between the switchbacks is narrow, and the slope (cliff?) it's on is steep, another source of pucker factor.  These pics show that a little.






From Adios Curve to Bridal Veil Falls took about 40 minutes to drive the 1 mile, including a couple of stops to wait for broken Jeeps (a JK with engine issues and an undetermined later model with a broken steering stabilizer).  Another 30 minutes brought us the last 4.5 miles down to the town park in Telluride.

This picture, from lower on the trail, shows the trail from another perspective.  Adios Curve is at the lowest place of the "horizon" (slightly to the left of the waterfall).  And you can see the trail scratching its way back and forth across the hill.


After lunch in the park we headed back to Ouray over Imogene Pass.  Mostly it's a pretty easy trail, but there are some "playgrounds" on both sides near the pass where you can take some optional lines (and there was a port-a-potty there too!).  Overall it took us about 3 hours to drive the 16.7 miles from Telluride to Ouray.  My wife asked what the big deal was with Imogene since so many people had asked if we'd done it.  The only thing I could think of was that it's a novices Black Bear.  Steep, shelfy and tight switchbacks that can make it exciting (just not as steep, shelfy or tight as Black Bear).  And since I heard the Jeep rental places don't allow you to take their vehicles on Black Bear (or Poughkeepsie), Imogene is probably one of the scarier trails many go on.

For us Imogene was still a fun trail.  And since Black Bear is one-way, once you take it from Ouray to Telluride Imogene is about the only trail option back from Telluride to Ouray.  And for us it definitely beats ~45 miles of highway!



So in the end, is Black Bear as dangerous as the say?  If you measure danger by how easily a mistake can get you killed, then I guess it certainly deserves it.  But then again, a mistake can easily get you killed on the freeway too, and I wouldn't say Black Bear is even as dangerous as a freeway.  Still, any driver who is prone to panic can REALLY get themself in trouble on Black Bear.  And forcing some people down as passengers could put a serious strain on some relationships!  So Black Bear isn't for everyone.   But it really is a pretty easy trail.  So a very fun day, but not challenging.

[Nothing Special]

Gary Lewis wrote

I'm ready to go!!!    But Big Blue isn't.    So much I want to do to him before we go.

Anyway, I absolutely LOVE the pics.  Stunning scenery!  Inspiring.  

As for the crowds, it does sound sorta busy, especially with the clubs there.  However, we will probably go a bit later in the year and hope many people will be home from their vacations.

Thanks!  As to the crowds, I think that's not too uncommon (the FJ Summit was maybe pretty big).  But it's a BIG area, so it rarely was an issue.  And even when it was, it was generally only a pretty short delay.  If you're looking for seclusion, Ouray won't give it to you.  But that's not to say it's too crowded.

Gary Lewis wrote

I do have a few questions.  What are JKU's and JLU's?  And what is "Est" on the map?  And you saw a lot of Wagoneers?  And why the Cherokee/Jeep-truck grills on them?  Is that an upgrade of some sort?

Sorry, Jeep jargon.  JKs are the 2007(?) - early 2018 Wranglers.  JLs are the new 2018 Wranglers.  The "U" is for "Unlimited" which designates the 4-door version.

Prior to the mid-size Cherokee and Wagoneer that people today are familiar with (from the '80s - 2001), they were based on the old "fullsize" J-series pickups.  The Wagoneer was the 4 door version, the Cherokee had 2 doors.  The Cherokee and the J-trucks had a vertical slot grill (about 22 slots if I recall, not the 7 that Jeep says they always have) while the Wagoneers had a more "elegant" looking grill.  It seems no one likes the Wagoneer grills.  Or maybe they're hard to find.  Anyway, most of the Wagoneers had the vertical slot grills.

Gary Lewis wrote

The maps are a huge help.    It is difficult to get my head around all the different trails, but having things laid out in the thread helps significantly.  Thanks.

Anyway, patiently awaiting MORE!

Yeah, we ended up giving away one map to a lost person on the trail, and helping another who had a national forest map figure out where they were (which was not where they thought or wanted).  I had a simple hand-drawn map from an old trail guide that was very helpful, and my "sketched" map on mt GPS which was VERY helpful because it also showed exactly where we were on the map.

And back to your earlier question, "Est" is "estimated".  Those are the trails I drew in by hand using the GPS base map as a guide.  If the base map is correct (and it frequently was), then those lines are accurate.  But I can't otherwise vouch for them.

[Gary Lewis]

Ok, got it.  I understood JK, and by extension JL, but didn't get the "U".  And I wondered if Est meant estimated.  Now I know.  

On the Wagoneers, that makes sense.  Apparently a lot of people are restoring them now.

As for the crowds, I'm not looking for seclusion.  In fact, I don't want to be the only one on the mountain.  But I also don't want to be that guy that is going too slowly or having trouble negotiating the turns and holding bunches of people up.  

And, I've been thinking about ratings for the trails.  But I don't want to derail your wonderful trip report here, so I posted about it on my thread.

[Nothing Special]

I don't think you need to worry too much about holding people up.  Definitely worry about it a little!  But there are places to let people get by, so as long as you have that in mind it won't be an issue.  And there will be plenty of others holding people up too!  We weren't the fastest out there by ANY means!  In fact, about the only ones slower than us were the big groups.  People were good natured about it though, everyone that passed us was still smiling!

[Nothing Special]

Ouray Day 3: Engineer Mountain Road - Poughkeepsie Gulch - California Gulch - Animas Cutoff - Engineer Mountain Road

We decided to tackle Poughkeepsie on Day 3.  We headed up Engineer Mountain Road off Highway 550 again.  Nothing new to report there since we had driven it on day 1.  2.4 miles up, and about 40 minutes later we were at the lower end of Poughkeepsie Gulch.  But here's another picture.


Poughkeepsie starts off tame enough, but even a lot of the tame section is pretty steep, with rather loose rocks.  No trouble at all with a rear locker, but not just a gravel road either.  At one point there was a slightly technical optional line that I did a couple of times, once for the camera and once for the video (my wife gets out to take pictures at the scary parts!).  It was another time I was very glad for the new front locker.




Since the last time we were there 18 year ago they've added a bypass around the "worst" (or best) part of the trail.  Spoiler alert, but we took the bypass on day 5.  It's not the easiest trail in the world either!  Shouldn't be any trouble for even a stock CJ, but a little tight in places for a fullsize.  But on this day we took the main trail.

When we got to "The Wall" there was a Jeep crawling around on it with a bunch of people in ATVs set up to spectate.  When I got there the Jeep driver offered to spot for me while he paused for a beer.

The Wall was a lot different from 18 years ago.  The easiest route up the left side was closed,  The middle was a lot more chewed up and the right side, that I had walked up with my CJ5 18 years before, looked pretty challenging.  With the spotter's help I tried the right side a few times and the middle a couple.  All the same result, spinning all 4 tires and going nowhere.  So I backed down to reconsider.

The right side:


The middle:


About then the large group of Toyotas we'd seen on Black Bear (minus some of the greener drivers) showed up.  With the bigger crowd I decided I better go or we were going to get caught in a traffic jam.  I opted for the right side, planning to winch after one or two tries.  I don't have any pictures of those two tries (just video), but I was successful on the second attempt (new spotters and a different line up the far left side of the hill helped).


Edit, added in December 2021:  I finally started a YouTube channel, so now I can add the video we took on this trip.  Here's what I have of Poughkeepsie Gulch,  First is the optional crawl below The Wall, then my attempts and eventual success climbing The Wall.



The rest of the way up Poughkeepsie had plenty of little challenges to keep it fun, but nothing that ever seemed like we might not be able to do.  In total it took about 3.5 hours to drive the 4.5 miles of Pughkeepsie, but that includes about 1.5 hours playing and spectating at The Wall.

Here's one pic from the top part (still below where the bypass rejoins the main trail):


And here's a picture of Lake Como, at the top of Poughkeepsie Gulch (picture taken from the start of the Hurricane Pass trail).


The rest of the day was pretty uneventful.  We headed down California Gulch (40 minutes, 4.4 mies) and over the Animas Cutoff (30 minutes, 2.9 miles) intending to go up to Engineer Pass.  But we decided it was getting too late, and we had two more days with really no other trails planned, so we decided to leave Engineer Pass for another day and just headed back down Engineer Mountain Road to the highway (1.5 hours, 7.0 miles).  The only thing worth noting was that the last mile coming down before the Poughkeepsie Gulch turn-off involve a lot of switchbacks.  Nothing that difficult, but on the GPS it looked like we were almost there, but it took another 20 minutes without looking like we were making any progress across the screen.

[Gary Lewis]

Wow!  That Wall looks like fun!  But, I don't think it is something Big Blue would like given his front and rear overhang as well as his stiff suspension, and I'm sure Janey wouldn't.

But the views are amazing!  Keep the reports coming, I'm living vicariously.  

[Nothing Special]

It wouldn't be undoable in Big Blue.  But picking a line that didn't drag the rear bumper would be a challenge.  And needing a winch to finish the climb wouldn't be unlikely either.  Still, this isn't a trail I'm going to recommend that you drive.  But when I get back to your thread I'll let you know how you can still have some fun with it (that Janey will also be able to deal with!).

[Gary Lewis]

I'm in no hurry to get the info on my thread.  I'm just having a great time reading your adventures.  

As for doing it in Big Blue, I'm guessing that I may want to try it on another trip w/o Janey.  Or, maybe I should say "on a trip with Janey but without her on that trail".  In an effort to keep the focus here on your trip, more of this on my thread.......

[Nothing Special]

Ouray Day 4: Engineer Mountain Road - Engineer Pass - Odom Point - Yvonne Pass - Engineer Mountain Road

Since we hadn't taken the time for Engineer Pass the day before we had to do it now (I'm an engineer, and I had bought an "Engineer Pass" cap, so it seemed necessary to get a picture at the top!).

On Engineer Mountain Road we ended up behind two separate groups of FJ Cruisers.  There were also a pair of JKUs and a side-by-side ATV stuck behind them too (not an anti-Toyota slam, just that big groups often go slower than small ones).  Both groups eventually let us by, and overall it still only took about 2.5 hours to get up to the turnoff to the pass.

(By the way, that picture shows how you get by oncoming traffic.  In the foreground is a wide spot that a vehicle can pull into, allowing others by on the left.  Then 3 vehicles up there's another spot.  And at the end of this shelf there's another place.  Some places don't have this many options, but this isn't completely atypical either.)



From that intersection it took only about 20 minutes to go the last 2.5 miles up to Engineer Pass.  Nothing too difficult, but it didn't take long and there were great views.  Engineer Pass goes down the other side to Lake City, but we turned around and headed back toward Ouray.


Not far back down Engineer Pass there's a short spur that goes on on a ridge.  A sign on the end of the ridge identifies it as Odom Point.  That was a great place to stop for lunch.  While we were up there a side-by-side came up and stopped a little ways off from us for quite a while, then came up and asked "where are we?"  We gave them one of our maps and helped them figure out where they were and where they wanted to go.  They had come over Cinnamon Pass and had found that it was way more difficult than they were ready for.  So boring for my wife was over the top for someone else!

Anyway, here's a view from Odom Point.


Going back down Engineer Pass there's another spur that I read goes to Yvonne Pass.  That pass was closed years ago, so it's a dead end now, but the trail supposedly goes to the top of Engineer Mountain.  As you go the trail gets fainter and steeper, so we stopped when it got to our limit.  Total we spent about 30 minutes going up and down.


Then we just headed back down Engineer Mountain Road.  Old hat by now (it took about 2 hours), but that's OK too


By the way, here's a picture I missed from the Imogene Pass trail on day 2.  It's been really dry in Colorado, with lots of fires and burning restrictions (no being able to use charcoal required changes to our camping menu).  But it did rain quite a bit just before we got there, and we saw these wildflowers.  I think only once before have I caught flowers at this good a time.  And two days later all the lowers we were seeing were pretty wilted.  So it really is a matter of being in the right place at the right time.

[Gary Lewis]

Now, this sounds like our kind of 'wheeling.  You didn't mention any terribly tough places, but then it was Day 4 so maybe your tolerance for tough going has changed?  

But the importance of good maps is obvious.  Glad you've stressed that.

And, the wild flowers are beautiful!  You got a special treat.

[Nothing Special]

It did include Engineer Mountain Road (twice), but I didn't talk about it much here since we were on that road 3 of the first 4 days (and we were on it on day 5 as well).  Looking at the map, Engineer Mountain Road is by far the quickest way into the trails (except Black Bear and Imogene on the west side of 550), so we were on it a lot.  As I said in the day 1 post, Engineer Mountain Road is probably the roughest, most difficult section of the Alpine Loop.  Not to get too worked up about it, it's not that bad.  But it's not just a gravel road in the mountains.

As to the tolerance for tough going, you weren't far off ("teaser" for days 5 and 7).

[Nothing Special]

Ouray Day 5:  Engineer Mountain Road - Poughkeepsie Gulch - Hurricane Pass - Corkscrew Pass - Corkscrew Gulch

At the end of day 4 my wife decided that the word for that day was "scenery."  By the end of day 5 she decided that the word for this day was "Oops."  More on that as we go along.

She suggested that we do Poughkeepsie again, but not do the Wall, that we had done that already so let's not push it again, but let's see the bypass, go to the Wall and watch others, and play a little on the easier parts of Poughkeepsie.  I agreed to that (happy wife, happy life!).

Starting up Engineer Mountain Road we ran into the first "oops."  We caught up to a group of FJ Cruisers where one had gone off the trail.  They were up against some small trees and couldn't get back up on the trail.  They weren't in a horrible dangerous position, but if they were a couple of feet further to the right (which at least the trees were keeping from happening) they'd probably have rolled a long, long way.  They were rigging a winch to pull the front sideways, and easily drove back on the trail with the winch's help.  The couple in the FJ were in their 60s, and looked very glad to step out onto (relatively) level ground!

And lest anyone get too worked up about how dangerous this is, it takes some serious daydreaming to stop paying attention to these trails enough for this to happen, especially on the more dangerous sections (which this was not).  If you don't want this to happen, just don't drive off the trail!

We started up Poughkeepsie Gulch.  During one photo stop a little below treeline were were passed by a white pickup that proclaimed itself "the slowest Tacoma in the world."  The driver stopped briefly and chatted about being happy when he sees someone keeping old iron like my '71 Bronco out on the trails.  Then an old red Toyota Hilux caught up to him and I recognized Marlin Czajkowski, of "Marlin Crawler" fame.  The white truck was his son, now the company president.  So that was fun (and got more fun, more on that later).

We continued up and decided to take the main trail up to the Wall (we'd backtrack and go up the bypass later).  Turned out there were two groups of about 10 FJs each waiting  to get up!  We couldn't even get into the open area at the bottom, so we pulled off the side of the approach trail.  We watched the groups try the Wall (three attempts and then the winch).  Most were trying the line I had done on our day 3 and all were dropping their passenger rear in the hole and getting stopped.  A few tried the far right line.  Most of them dropped the driver's rear in the hole and "almost" rolled (not really that close, but close enough to be spooky).  But the ones that stayed far enough right were able to get up.

The Marlin Crawler trucks were definitely the exceptions.  Both crawled up in spite of intentionally putting tires in the hole.  Michael in the white truck even got out and watched most of the time while his driverless truck walked up alone!

A couple FJs took the left side of the middle section.  A stock FJ needed the winch (the yellow one below).  A couple of FJs with solid axles were able to drive up the far left side, but not without some false starts and good spotting.


The next "oops" wasn't too bad, but a blue FJ with solid axles tried the right side of the middle section.  That line tips you very close to the rock if you do it right.  It tips you into the rock if you do it wrong.  I'm not sure if this was right or wrong.  He eventually made it up, but I never saw if he had any new rock rash.


By this time a third group of FJs had caught up.  We were able to get them to all pull up into the bowl so we could head back down.  We then went up the bypass.  As noted earlier, it wasn't the easiest trail in the area either.  We were following a stock FJ and the passenger got out about three times to spot.  We drove it without any spotting, and I know CJs would have no trouble with it, even with two open diffs, but I'm less sure about a fullsize truck.  In fact, of all the trails we were on I think the Poughkeepsie bypass might be the hardest one to fit a fullsize truck on.

After lunch at Lake Como at the top of Poughkeepsie we headed back over Hurricane and Corkscrew passes and down Corkscrew Gulch where we ran into the worst "oops."  I'm not sure exactly what happened but when we got there there were 2 JKUs stopped in a switchback, a dirt bike laid on it's side at the edge of the trail and a girl on a 4-wheeler stopped in the switchback.  On the trail below were two more 4-wheelers with two people looking up.  And on the hill between the two trails was another girl trying not to slide down any farther.  One of the Jeepers was getting out a tow strap and they had her up to the trail by the time I got down to them.

What we know is that the 4-wheelers were coming up the trail and that the girl jumped off hers, which people were saying was a good thing.  Best I can gather is that one of the 4-wheelers on the trail below had been hers, she was coming up hard and ended up going off the trail when she met oncoming traffic.  If that's the case, her 4-wheeler fell about 100 feet down to the next trail where it stopped, and she was able to stop herself in probably about 20 feet.

The 4 people on the 4 wheelers ended up getting on 2 of the 3, leaving the one we think fell down the hill.  They headed down to "camp" at highway 550.  We met one of them coming back up later (and going way too fast, probably over 20 mph on a one lane 2 way road).

The girl in black on the left side of the picture had just been pulled back up to the trail in this picture.

And again, lest anyone think this is too dangerous, keep your speed down.  On a narrow road like this you need to be able to stop when you meet oncoming traffic, not coulnt on them being on their side of the (one lane) road.  I always do my best to look around corners as best I can.  But if someone is coming fast at me I do not make much of an attempt to get out of their way.  I'll stop as hard as I can, and maybe edge a little right.  But the only vehicles that can go fast enough on these roads to get into trouble like that really are motorcycles and ATVs, and I'd rather be hit head-on by one of them than drive off a cliff.

The last "oops" was much tamer.  We met another group of ATVs that was lost.  They were the ones I mentioned earlier that had a very detailed map, but didn't know where they were on it.  We helped them figure out where they were on their map, got them turned around (since they had missed their turn a mile or two back) and headed down ourselves.

[Nothing Special]

Nothing Special's Colorado trip, days 6 and 7: Spring Creek Trail

Those five days ended our time in Ouray for this trip.  At the end of day 5 I pulled the Bronco's rear driveshaft and got it ready to be towed again.  Day 6 was driving up to Denver and setting up camp at Chatfield State Park.  We then had dinner with some new old friends (a couple we met on a cruise last year).

On Day 7 we drive west on I-70, just past Idaho Springs, to Spring Creek Trail.  As I noted in the first post in this thread, Spring Creek has a really special place for me.  I started reading 4 wheel drive magazines when I was 11.  I got my '85 F-250 about 10 years later and did some mild 'wheeling with it in the midwest.  But my first "real" 'wheeling trip was in a friends brand-new stock '87 Wrangler.  We did a bunch of pretty easy trails (and also a bunch of hiking) for a week before ending with Spring Creek.  We made it past what I've recently heard of as Obstacle 3 (although we never saw Obstacle 1), but ended up deciding that discretion was the better part of valor in the boulder field above Obstacle 3, so we turned around and went back.

That was about the time I started building my '75 CJ5, and as I built it I had the specific goal to drive it all the way up Spring Creek.  In 1993, less than a month after I finished the build, I went out with a pretty big group of people, but only one other Jeep (also a CJ5).  He had to winch over Obstacle 2, and in the boulder field, but I drove my Jeep the whole way!

Edit, added in December 2021:  I finally started a YouTube channel, so now I can post a video from that trip with my CJ5 back in 1993.



A year later I was out in Colorado with a friend for a conference,  We were in my stock '85 F-250.  We did a few days of mild 'wheeling, with Spring Creek being the toughest trail we did.  It was a BEAR with two open diffs and no winch, but we did make it.

Then in 2000, at the end of our first Ouray trip, we swung by Spring Creek again, and I ran it in my CJ5 with my wife and (at the time) 4 and 6 year old boys.

Since then we've done much harder trails in the Black Hills, but I've always wanted to do Spring Creek again (and again!).  In planning for this trip I looked up video of Spring Creek on YouTube and saw that it might be a lot harder than it used to be (I also got the imaginative names of obstacles 1, 2 and 3).

So on day 7 we started up!

About 0.3 miles up there's a fork to the left that goes to Obstacle 1.  I had taken the main trail / bypass on previous trips, but we took the left fork this time.  It gets shelfy pretty quick and goes around a corner with a steep wall up on the right, a steep drop off on the left and some boulders and holes in the trail as you climb up.  My wife decided to get out and take pictures.  The trail then continues along the shelf for a bit before turning right to go up Obstacle 1.  I know, pictures or it didn't happen.  Well, no pictures and it didn't happen.  I think I could have got up it with my son's help spotting (or driving while I spotted).  But he wasn't there.  And I know I could've got up with the winch.  But my wife didn't want me to start up a climb, solo, where I knew I'd need to winch.  So we turned around and headed back to the main trail / bypass.

Here are a couple of pictures from coming back down the corner I mentioned.  In the first one you can see what happens when you drop the left front tire of a Bronco in a hole with a full tank of gas but you forgot to put the gas cap back on!  Look behind the driver's side mirror and you can see that I sloshed a "little" gas out!  (I capped it when my wife told me what she saw).




At about 1.3 miles the trail gets pretty shelfy again, and at 1.8 miles we reached Obstacle 2.  This had been no trouble for a stock YJ in '87, or a CJ5 with a rear locker in '93 and '00.  It was a significantly technical section for the truck with open diffs in '94.  But I didn't even recognize it now!  I recognized the turn in the trail, and the location.  But the trail itself was completely different.  Gone was the mild rut that was at an awkward angle to allow you to keep all 4 tires planted.  In its place were ROCKS.  It still wasn't all that difficult for the Bronco with 2 lockers, but I was expecting this part to not be worth any photos.  It was.




And in the last picture, no I wasn't trying to pull a "Marlin Crawler" driverless rock crawler stunt.  My wife was shooting videos while I drove, she shot some stills while I was out spotting for myself.

Edit, added December 2021:  and here's the video she was shooting:



So we continued on.  The trail up to Obstacle 3 is kind of long (1.9 miles / 1 hour).  Parts are shelfy, parts are steep.  There are a few sort of big rocks, but nothing technical.

Obstacle 3 is at the start of what looks like a switchback to the left with the main trail continuing straight ahead.  It's SO different from 18 years ago that I didn't recognize it so I went straight.  What looks like the main trail actually dead-ends in about 0.2 miles.  So we went back to Obstacle 3 and I felt sick.  What used to be a main trail so narrow that it took about a 15 point turn to get my F-250 turned around is now well over 2 vehicles wide.  And the obstacle, which used to be a fun challenge with 2 open diffs, now has boulders with holes between them that eat 37" tires.  In fact, while we were on the dead end a group of 2 JKUs and a JLU, all with at least 37" tires and 2 lockers, had caught up to us and were starting up Obstacle 3.  They made good use of their rock sliders in the process!  There were able to get all three up, and offered to help me get over it as well.  But it had rained briefly while we were there, there was thunder, it was the last day of our trip, and I don't have rock rails.  So as Gary noted, with our tolerance for tough trails waning, we bailed.  We were about 1/2 hour down when I asked my wife if she had thought to take pictures.  She had put the camera away when it started to rain, and hadn't got it back out again (and lest it seem that I'm blaming her, I didn't think of it until 1/2 hour later either).  So no pictures.  But I guess that's appropriate since it didn't happen anyway.

So we had to go back down, but at least got to have a little more fun on Obstacle 2.  I wish the second picture below showed the left rear, because I'm pretty sure I picked it up quite a ways!






Overall it took us about 5 1/4 hours to drive 8.8 miles (~4.4 each way), which included the stops at the various obstacles and for lunch.  It was disappointing to not get to do the trail, but I simply wasn't prepared for the trail as it is now.  Next time (and there WILL be a next time!) I'll come in from the top so I can see (and hopefully drive) the boulder field.  I'll come down to Obstacle 3 and decide if I want to do it or not, but then turn around and go back out the top (the trail ends on the Mt. Evans Highway 103).  And hopefully I'll have rock sliders and some different tires / wheels.

[Nothing Special]

Well, that was the end of my trip.  It was a lot of fun.  Not as much technical as many of my recent trips have been, and a lot more "trail riding" rather than "fourwheeling."  But it was great to go on a 'wheeling trip with just my wife now that we're (sort of) empty-nesters and enjoy it!

The Bronco worked great too.  I couldn't be happier with how the new front OX locker complemented the rear Detroit.  I left the carb jetted for my 700' elevation home, and it still worked well, even on 13,114' Imogene Pass.  My fuel mileage stunk as bad as my exhaust, and it took a lot of cranking and throttle to get it restarted.  But it never stumbled while it was running.  Although I certainly noticed often having to use one gear lower than I'd have guessed due to lower power output, mostly from the high elevation, but probably some from the rich mixture as well.

I did add some new gouges to my nice aluminum wheels and to my Warn hubs.  And I had a hard time finding traction on Poughkeepsie.  My plan after my last trip was to get some different tires for 'wheeling.  I'm thinking 35-12.50x17 mud tires (maybe Falken WildPeak MTs?) on beadlock rims, and save my '95 F-150 Alcoas with 33-10.50x15 BFG A/Ts for street and very mild trail use.  I'm thinking now I might get more serious about that.  And I also need to add rock rails.

I added some custom bends to the tip of my tail pipe, but not enough to affect how the engine runs (I did crimp it closed a few years ago!).  And I have a HORRIBLE exhaust leak from where the exhaust pipe attaches to the left manifold.  That happened on the last trip too.  I replaced a motor mount after that, so I need to see if I tore the new mount or else what the real issue is that's letting that happen.

I didn't add any new dents or scratches to the sheet metal, so that's good!

Other than the exhaust, the only issue I had was that my oil leaks got worse, including a valve cover that is leaking oil onto an exhaust manifold.  So very soon I'll be digging into that.

So this now ends my trip report.  I welcome any discussion / questions that anyone has here.  And otherwise I'll get back to Gary's thread.

[Gary Lewis]

Wow, what a trip!  And, what a trip report!  I really appreciate the report, and thoroughly enjoy (present tense as I have, am, and will) reading it.

I'm going to compare what you did each day with the map and try to get my head around where you went.  And, I'm going to get a map or two for my Gaia app on my phone and see what I can find there in the way of a map to use.

What advantage(s) do you see in the larger and different tires?  I'm not thinking of changing tires on Big Blue, but since he has essentially the same size tires you have now I'm wondering what issues I might have there.

As for the rock sliders, that's one reason I mounted the step bars where and how they are mounted.  They are seriously solid and don't flex.  But, I wonder if they are strong enough to be considered "sliders".  (One was apparently used that way before I got them, but I don't know how effective they were.)

If you want we can have any discussion of the above on my thread to keep your focused on your most excellent adventure.  Well done!  

[Nothing Special]

I don't mind any additional discussion in my thread.  You may want to keep more of it in yours for simplicity, but since it's already split in two and you asked here...

The main think I'm looking for in new tires is to better protect my nice stock '95 F-150 Alcoa wheels.  I'm scraping them up too much.  I think they're 8" wide with 10.5" wide tires.  I want to go with 12.5" wide tires on probably still 8" rims.  I'll keep my current wheels and tires for street driving, but have another set for 'wheeling.

With dedicated wheels for 'wheeling (if I do that) I'm thinking I'll get beadlocks.  I've never lost a bead at 15 psi, but some pictures have made it look like I'm close.  And it would be nice to be able to air down lower for better ride and better traction on the more serious trails (Poughkeepsie is just borderline serious, Spring Creek is very serious now).

And bigger always seems better.  I might still stay with 33" tires, but if I can fit 35s, that might be nice on the more serious trails (37s would be better yet, but I'm sure those won't fit without more work, and Lesley doesn't want to have to climb even higher to get in).

And finally, my BFG ATs are just about worn out, so I simply need new tires.  If I have two sets I'll probably get more aggressive for 'wheeling and stay with all terrains for street.  But even new all terrains would've helped a lot on Poughkeepsie.

Even so, my tires were fine for Ouray.  It was Spring Creek where I more felt the need for better (and probably bigger) tires.

So for you in the Ouray area, I wouldn't worry about your tires.  Most of the cars/trucks I saw on the trails had some sort of mild all terrain, or even closer to a street tire.  As long as your tires are in decent shape just about anything will be fine (although I would recommend at least load range C to avoid sidewall damage, but I doubt that's an issue with Big Blue!).

On the rock sliders, if you start doing really serious 'wheeling, when you intentionally plant a rock slider on a rock to pivot the vehicle around, yours probably won't hold up.  But for what you're talking about I think they'll be fine.  The only iffy place would be if you tried the far right line on the Wall.  You'd probably highcenter and need to drag across, and they might not hold up to that.  So just don't do that line!