Long tube headers

[Matt Wood]

Hi all,

question 3 of the night  

I want to make a full custom stainless exhaust system in the summer of this year, i really want to go down the long tube header route but have heard lots of horror stories of burning out starters because of the heat and (the worst one) having to notch the frame to make them fit!

Does anyone have any experience on this of what would almost be a bolt on replacement?

Its a 351W in an '85 Bronco (4x4 of course)

Thanks again

Matt

[LARIAT 85]

I have had Thorley Tri-Y headers on my Lucille for about 10 years now and I haven't had any starter issues nor did I have to notch the frame or any other modifications.  

[Rusty_S85]

Customer we have at work has a '82 that had long tube headers never had a problem for 10 years or so with them.

[Rembrant]

Matt Wood wrote

I want to make a full custom stainless exhaust system in the summer of this year, i really want to go down the long tube header route but have heard lots of horror stories of burning out starters because of the heat and (the worst one) having to notch the frame to make them fit!

I can't speak to any issues specifically with the 351w, but I have read of some issues with the 302, and I always attribute that to guys installing Mustang headers on trucks. Mustang headers are cheap and plentiful, but they run closer to the starter on the trucks than they do on the cars with the smaller flywheels. Rick may know more about that topic.

I went with truck specific shorty headers...BBK's in chrome, and I'm quite happy with them. I went this route for simplicity sakes, and while I did run full dual exhaust, I was able run them in the location of the stock single exhaust. I know you want long tubes, I'm just throwing this out there as a Plan-B for you;).

PS: One small bit of advice I can give is to buy good gaskets and bolts (if required). Two high performance engine building shops recommended Remflex gaskets to me, and so far they have been great. No leaks whatsoever. I also went with longer ARP header bolts as the ones that came with my BBK's were too short.




Whatever HP I may have sacrificed in not going with longtubes I am OK with as my truck is just a cruiser/driver, and I was going more for "pretty" than for "power".

[Gary Lewis]

I've not done headers on a lighter truck nor a Bronco.  Nor have I done headers on a 351W.  But I have on a 460 in Big Blue and that was a huge pain!  Just getting to the bolts was a big pain.  And I had to notch the frame.  But I've not had starter problems, probably because the starter is a PMGR unit so is much smaller.  And I had the headers Jet Hot coated so they don't radiate nearly as much heat as un-coated headers do.

[Matt Wood]

Thanks for the info, I only really want to run long tubes so that it looks cleaner in the engine bay and there isnt a joint (for leaking in the future) right there. I am going to do some research and may just have to bite the bullet and order some that look good and hope they fit! Thanks for the tip on bolts and gaskets, i will definitely be doing as you say. No need to cheap out on that stuff!

Gary, do you have a picture of the notch you cut into Big Blue? im not 10% against it but i don't want it to look shoddy if you know what i mean, i want it to look as clean as possible

[Gary Lewis]

Matt - Rather than put the pics, plural, here why not have you go to that post in Big Blue's thread.  The reason is that there is an explanation there that might help.

However, bear in mind that Big Blue is an F250HD, which means the frame rails are a lot wider than those on an F150 or Bronco.  And the 460 itself is much wider than a 351W.  All of which means the header has to be a whole lot closer to the frame than in your case.

On the gaskets and headers, I'm running L&L headers and they have a 1/2" thick flange that goes against the head.  That is much thicker than most headers and seems to be a big part of why I've not had gasket problems.  I'm not saying L&L are the best, but that the thickness of the flange is important.

[Matt Wood]

Thanks for that! I will remember that they are totally different lol, that notch you cut looks brilliant! id be more than happy to do that if need be! I've seen a lot of butchery online with people 'notching the frame' which did put me off but that has changed my mind! no one would ever be able to tell really.

[Rusty_S85]

Rembrant wrote

Matt Wood wrote

I want to make a full custom stainless exhaust system in the summer of this year, i really want to go down the long tube header route but have heard lots of horror stories of burning out starters because of the heat and (the worst one) having to notch the frame to make them fit!

I can't speak to any issues specifically with the 351w, but I have read of some issues with the 302, and I always attribute that to guys installing Mustang headers on trucks. Mustang headers are cheap and plentiful, but they run closer to the starter on the trucks than they do on the cars with the smaller flywheels. Rick may know more about that topic.

I went with truck specific shorty headers...BBK's in chrome, and I'm quite happy with them. I went this route for simplicity sakes, and while I did run full dual exhaust, I was able run them in the location of the stock single exhaust. I know you want long tubes, I'm just throwing this out there as a Plan-B for you;).

PS: One small bit of advice I can give is to buy good gaskets and bolts (if required). Two high performance engine building shops recommended Remflex gaskets to me, and so far they have been great. No leaks whatsoever. I also went with longer ARP header bolts as the ones that came with my BBK's were too short.




Whatever HP I may have sacrificed in not going with longtubes I am OK with as my truck is just a cruiser/driver, and I was going more for "pretty" than for "power".

Yep I hope to post fitment for the headers I bought for my truck they are shorty headers such as the ones you posted but mine are Hedman and they are for 1986 - 1996 F-series/Bronco with a 302.  I looked up the Y pipe part number and 82 - 86 shows the same part number Y pipes.  But considering that I am looking at aftermarket Y pipes for a 86 - 96 I shouldnt have any fitment issues.

Stock photo of the ones I got.  Still have to decide what color to have them ceramic coated as I got mine in the painted so I can have them ceramic coated in a color of my choice as I hate the silver.

[Andre]

Matt,

I have long tube headers under my 1982 Bronco 351W, no issue's at all with heat or fitment. We have made a custom stainless connection from the headers going aft. I stayed with the one side exit on the right rear wheel, but this can altered anyway you want.
Basically from the headers, we installed the V shape clamp, coming across underneath C6 oil pan and join them before going over the gearbox frame. This piece is one item, but easy to remove when needed. In de picture you see that I have installed a valve that I can open before the silencer, this one we still need to join over the silencer, rather than being open to the floor.
See pictures.

[Gary Lewis]

Andre - As always, that looks superb!

Matt - I know how close you are to that Bronco.  When Andre gets back to Amsterdam this spring, and after you get the vaccine, you two should get together.  Post a pic for us.  

[Matt Wood]

WOW Andre! Thanks for that great info, What make are your headers? Im fully expecting to have to make a full custom exhaust from the headers back and i also have a valve in my current setup  just for those kick down moments lol

Gary / Andre, im only a few hundred miles away from central Amsterdam id love a meetup! id almost be tempted to look into the ferry logistics to bring the truck over! Furthering Gary, you're over this way next year right? (Covid Dependant) We could all have a meet up here! you're definitely going to drive past me if you plan to go anywhere other than London! I have a few friends over here with broncos (newer) and im sure they'd love to have a little bronco show! What are your two's thoughts?

[Gary Lewis]

Yep, I thought you'd pick up on how close the two of you are.  Or actually, you are to his Bronco as Andre is in Spain painting his house at the moment.  And the ferry runs from Harwich to Hook, so it would be an easy journey.  

But unfortunately we won't make it to the UK in 2021.  We've taken a decision to wait at least another year and let the virus settle down before strapping into a metal tube with hundreds of other people of unknown health.  So you two go ahead and meet and post a pic, please!

[Jason2215]

Matt,

My long tubes (Hedman, I think) rub the front DS at the collector.  It's not bad and could be heated up/turned a bit or shaved off a little and wouldn't rub, but just something to keep in mind.  Mine is lifted 4" and that's when I believe the rubbing started.  Just FYI.  I am looking at some mid-length style headers from Stans Headers as mine are rusting out anyways.  Pricey but I've read some great things.

[Andre]

Matt,

I have no idea what make those headers are, cant find anything like it online either, and there is nothing written on them. If needed I will copy those again, as they fit perfectly.

[ArdWrknTrk]

They look like Thorley Tri-Y's.
They have that nice thick flange too.  

[Matt Wood]

Gary, I totally agree with your decision, especially with what has begun to happen here! We are basically all into full lockdown again within about 4 hours notice so it must be serious! Suposidly the 'new' strain here is 70% more contagious! Disaster!

Jason, Thanks for the detailed info, i was looking a headman ones and i also have a 4 inch lift! Its likely that i would have run into the same issue. The only rubbing after the lift makes me think i will have that issue with all headers that 'fit' like the Tri-Y's Andre has.


What is everyones opinion on getting a pair of stainless flanges and making my own headers... does that sound like an 'impossible' task?

[ArdWrknTrk]

Do you have experience TIG welding stainless or doing pipe fit-ups Matt?

While it would be a challenge, the cost of buying a welder, having a well ventilated fireproof place to do it, and the scrap needed to practice might prove a deal breaker.

It might be a challenging prospect to farm out as well, because of the need to have the truck there to check and optimize each bend as it is tacked together before fully welding them up.

409 is a ductile grade of stainless that welds rather well.
It will develop some surface corrosion but has many advantages.
Check the comments here:   https://www.maperformance.com/blogs/maperformance-blog/77005123-409-and-304-stainless-steel-bet-you-didnt-know-these-details

A place to look is steam and pipefitters that work in pharmaceutical or food plants.
Dairy's -for example- need a tremendous amount of stainless tubing welded to sanitary standards.

I looked at Doug Thorley when I saw Andre's header, and it seems they have "stainless kits coming soon"

[Matt Wood]

Jim,

I have zero experience in tig welding but do have a tig welder (i have done mig and my mig welder can do tig as well) I am usually pretty good at taking my hand to things so am confident i could at least tack it all together and then take it to someone else to weld for a final finish.

Id have no choice but to go with a 30x stainless as we use LOTS of salt on the roads here and i cant have it corroding on me right away, id like to keep the nice clean look. Unfortunaly welding is much less common over this side of the pond so id have to pay a premium to have someone do a nice job of finishing it, although im not apposed to that provided im happy with the results!

Id idealy like to go down the bolt on route like Andre's but it may not be possible. Ill have to be patient and see what the outcome is of Brexit and covid over here.

[ArdWrknTrk]

I don't see Thorley offers anything for these older trucks any more.

304 is okay to weld, but you must back purge or it crystalizes and turns black.
Crystalization leads to cracks, especially something vibrating like an engine.

I have a magnaflow tail pipe in 409.
It is holding up just fine, as are my factory headpipes.
But they are discolored and have the protective corrosion mentioned.

A note about welding stainless.
It is not very heat conductive, so a much smaller weld pool than the same settings on carbon steel.

As I said, dairy, food processing, pharma and restaurant fabricators all TIG stainless all day every day.
Here in the States (at least where I am near NYC) the Chinese have the restaurant supply market cornered.
The work is good and the prices reasonable (competitive)