It's all in the timing!

[FuzzFace2]

grumpin wrote

I had the same result with the Mr Gasket springs, which I shouldn’t have tried because as you said, they’re light springs.

Also had the same results trying to adjust the vacuum can. I have a can on my old distributor I’m going to use. I know I can adjust it with a 3/32 Allen wrench. I got the can in my old distributor at NAPA BTW.

Scotty the mad porter suggested that I run a cooler thermostat, I have a 195° in there now, will go with a 180°. He stated that he’s seen problems with engines with big iron heads. Hadn’t thought of that.

I won’t be doing this till we get warmer and dryer weather. I’m working outside.

Now you tell me after I did the spring swap
I dont remember who told me of that kit number and why they are so light?

My Factory can uses a 1/8 Allen wrench and I put it back on just so I had something and was thinking if the spring worked out I could see about adjusting the vacuum side and if it worked great.
I do have one on order and should be here later today.

I dont really want to go colder on the stat because I am getting a milkshake in the dip stick tube and under the oil fill cap and if I go colder it might get worst but I dont know.

I am lucky that I have my garage with all my tools, Javelin is in the house garage now truck in my garage.
Friday I have my monthly eye needle and after I rest some I may go back out and see what I can come up with.

Gary Lewis wrote

Dave -Sorry for the flop. And sorry for the late and short reply - we have company.

First, I don’t let Mr Gasket products in my shop, much less on my truck. I didn’t tell you that when you ordered the springs as I hoped you wouldn’t have the same experience. Sorry.

But you obviously need to find a heavier spring. Does Crane have a kit?  Their stuff has always been good.

And you can test springs by hooking two together and seeing which stretches first.

I’ll try to get back on this topic tomorrow.

What you are not on here 24 / 7
Another one that did not tell me not to use Mr. Gasket kit
I did not check if Crane had a kit as I figured the Mr G kit would have worked, oh well.
When I checked the on line speed shops they kept showing springs for GM dist. not even Ford v8 dist.?
I mat have something I can use, stay tuned.

85lebaront2 wrote

Dave, you might want to use the R18 slot, the R is for right hand rotation and 13 or 18 are the number of distributor degrees, but it might be crank degrees advance it will give you. You probably want 34° degrees total mechanical advance on a 300 due to the long stroke. So if it is crank degrees, 34° - 18° = 16° BTDC static timing.

Keep in mind, the 300 as built was a torque motor, not high rpm and by 1986 it was pretty well strangled by the emission system. Good example, my second Ford truck was a 1977 F150, 300 six and C4. PS and brakes. Fellow I worked with had a 1977 F100, essentially the same as mine. Underhood, way different, mine had PCV and Evaporative emissions only, his had the whole package, Cat, Air pump, EGR in addition to what mine had.

On springs, do you or anyone you know have a fish scale? You need a tension scale to test the springs for load. Keep in mind what I said in my earlier post about the heavy spring having a long hook on one end, this is what is used to control the amount of initial mechanical advance.

On the R13 / R18 I can put the old spring back in and change the slot and see what it dose.
I dont want to change to a different spring and the slot at the same time. You know 1 change at a time.
Its just a pain as the dist. needs to be pulled, taken apart for changes, put back together, installed and tested.

I know its not a high RPM motor as I shift at or just below 2000 RPM and most of the time working range is between 1000 & 1800 RPM that is low to a v8 working range LOL

I dont have or know anyone that has a fish scale. Wonder if HF would have something like that as I pass one on the way home from work. Also have a Northern Tool across the street from HF I can check with.

I did see the heavy spring was loose and know the weak spring works to the point of tanking the slack out of the heavy spring then the heavy spring kicks in, is that right?

Right now it looks like the weak spring is letting it advance just off idle RPM (1000 RPM) and by 1500 RPM all advance was in. I have been testing advance up to 3000 RPM but just to make sure I ran it up to 3500 RPM with no change in timing from the 1500 RPM reading.

Thanks guys for all the help.
Dave ----

[FuzzFace2]

Ok this is what I have to work with from my MSD dist.

From the bottom up:
Rusty (1) spring is the old factory spring.

Silver (1) Mr Gasket kit spring you can see it is a thinner wire now side by side.

Blue (2) MSD springs look to be the same wire size as factory with fewer loops but the hooks look to be in the same areas as the other 2 springs. It also feels harder to pull it apart than the factory spring. This may be the one to try?

Silver (2) MSD springs as seen are heavy wire and I cant pull it apart. I dont know if this is the same as the factory heavy spring or not? The loops on them are just like the other springs shown, no big loop as Bill pointed out with the factory spring but looks to be a little longer loop to loop?

It would be nice if I had a scale like Bill posted about and will see if I can get something before I do this party again.

So I think I may try one of the blue springs and see what that gets me as I got to start somewhere and if that dose not cut it I will put the stock spring back in as pinging was not too bad with timing set at 10* BTDC.
What you guys think?

Thanks
Dave ----

ps: Just went back over the above posts and see Gary posted "And you can test springs by hooking two together and seeing which stretches first."
I wil give that a try now with the above springs.
It pays to read posts a few times
Thanks

[grumpin]

“Dave, I tried the Mr Gasket distributor spring kit on my 460. And it pinged or knocked worse.”

This is my quote on page 2 of this thread!

Edit: typo

[FuzzFace2]

grumpin wrote

“Dave, I tried the Mr Gasket distributor spring kit on my 460. And it pinged or knocked worse.”

This is my quote on page 2 of this thread!

Edit: typo

I guess I did not read your post more than 1 time

So what did you end up doing / using to re-curve yours?
Dave ----

[Gary Lewis]

Sorry, I didn't see your post until you'd already ordered so I chose not to say anything.  I have a house full of company so was distracted.  

The silver MSD springs are probably meant to go with the blue springs, and this manual provides some info on how they would react in the MSD dizzy.  And it is important that it is in their dizzy since the weights may well not be the same.

But you want to slow things down significantly, so I think I'd try one silver and one blue MSD springs.  Don't know what that will give you, but I think it'll be a lot better than what you have.

[FuzzFace2]

Gary Lewis wrote

Sorry, I didn't see your post until you'd already ordered so I chose not to say anything.  I have a house full of company so was distracted.  

The silver MSD springs are probably meant to go with the blue springs, and this manual provides some info on how they would react in the MSD dizzy.  And it is important that it is in their dizzy since the weights may well not be the same.

But you want to slow things down significantly, so I think I'd try one silver and one blue MSD springs.  Don't know what that will give you, but I think it'll be a lot better than what you have.

I dont remember seeing the paperwork for the MSD dist. and setting up the curve in the pit box where the springs were

You are most likely right on the weight of the MSD weights and used with their springs.

I will do your "you can test springs by hooking two together and seeing which stretches first" between the blue & the old removed spring to see what one takes more pull.
I dont know if I want to replace both springs at the same time just yet.
I know if just the blue dose not work I will need to do it all over again but what if it did not advance at all?

Think Friday will be the next time I will have time to work on it and it will be cold in the garage got to make sure I had LP for the heater.
Thanks
Dave ----

[grumpin]

FuzzFace2 wrote

grumpin wrote

“Dave, I tried the Mr Gasket distributor spring kit on my 460. And it pinged or knocked worse.”

This is my quote on page 2 of this thread!

Edit: typo

I guess I did not read your post more than 1 time

So what did you end up doing / using to re-curve yours?
Dave ----

I miss stuff all the time!

I’ve got the recurved distributor in there with the vacuum advance disconnected until we get some warmer and dryer weather, then I’ll get an adjustable vacuum can in there and replace the thermostat with a 180°.

I thought it better to have a 195° thermostat in there too. But now I think I’d rather have some “milkshake” than knocking.

[FuzzFace2]

grumpin wrote

FuzzFace2 wrote

grumpin wrote

“Dave, I tried the Mr Gasket distributor spring kit on my 460. And it pinged or knocked worse.”

This is my quote on page 2 of this thread!

Edit: typo

I guess I did not read your post more than 1 time

So what did you end up doing / using to re-curve yours?
Dave ----

I miss stuff all the time!

I’ve got the recurved distributor in there with the vacuum advance disconnected until we get some warmer and dryer weather, then I’ll get an adjustable vacuum can in there and replace the thermostat with a 180°.

I thought it better to have a 195° thermostat in there too. But now I think I’d rather have some “milkshake” than knocking.

Did you do the re-curve or someone else?
If you did it or know what springs were used and where did you get them?

The MSD springs look good side by side but till I do the"pull test" like Gary posted I will not know if they will work.

I also picked up the new vacuum advance can it is a Standard product #VC-210 and it is adjustable other wise I would have left it and looked into if Crane Cams makes one.
Dave ----

[Whisler]

I used the Crane kit in my 351 and it worked really well. If Crane makes one for the 300 c.i. engine, I bet it would work well.

[grumpin]

Dave, I bought a recurved distributor from Scotty the mad porter. Learned about him here. I don’t know what springs he used.

Highly recommend him. He’s been very helpful. I’ve never had so much trouble getting an engine tuned.

I didn’t want to wait for my distributor to be done so I bought one from him.

http://parklandautomachine.com/

He’s in Tacoma Washington.

[FuzzFace2]

Whisler thanks if what I have dose not work I will look into what Crane may have for the 300.

Dane, thanks I couldn't remember who bought what
Dave  ----

[FuzzFace2]

I got to give Gary a

I tried the "hook the 2 springs together and pull and see what one moves first" test and found the Mr. Gasket spring was weaker than the factory spring I pulled out and why it pings more now than before.

I tested the other springs and found the blue springs harder to pull than the factory spring and that big heavy spring I could not really pull it apart.
So from weak to strong: Mr. Gasket / Factory / blue / heavy

When I pull the dist. apart I will check the factory heavy spring to the heavy spring I have in hand.
Then decide if I want to swap them.
I think I will swap the 2 slots from the R13 to the R18 as Bill posted and see how it goes.
He posted I should be able to bump timing up to 16* BTDC where it started better than the 10* BTDC it is at now.

I hope later today if I feel better after my eye shot and its not to cold to pop the dist. out and do the changes.
FYI the blue & heavy springs are from MSD
Dave ----

[Gary Lewis]

I'm glad you are figuring out the stiffness of the springs.  And I think you are on the right track.  But would like to point out two things.

First, it looks to me like the MSD heavy spring has a circular end rather than a slot like the factory's heavy spring.  With the slot you are just using the light spring initially, and then both springs.  But without the slot you'll be using both springs all the time.  And the difference is that you will have less advance early in the RPM range with the MSD spring, regardless of how strong it is.

Second, lets talk about the R13 & R18 slots and advance rates.  You said that in the R13 slot and with the "recurve" you had a total of 27 degrees of advance at 2000 RPM, and the initial was at 14 degrees.  That seems to say that "R13" means 13 total or crank degrees.

However, the other test showed a total of 24 degrees at 1500 RPM with an initial of 16, so there's something amiss somewhere as you should have had 29 degrees total.  One possibility is that you were already into the centrifugal advance at your idle speed of 800 RPM.  And that seems to fit because you had the max of 24 degrees at 1500 RPM where the other test had the max at 2000 RPM, so the curve was starting much earlier.  In fact, in the test run at 14 degrees you were just starting to get advance at 1000 RPM, but on the 16 degree test you had a consistent 2 degrees of advance at 1000.

I say all of that to say that I think you have way too light of springs in the dizzy.  If you want to have initial timing at 16 degrees then I think you need much stronger springs to delay the start point of the centrifugal advance, and I suggest you go with the blue and silver MSD combo.  Then I think you can go to the R18 slot to get the total of 34 degrees, but at a much higher RPM, which will prevent pinging.

And once you have a solid, non-pinging, base you can move on to tuning the vacuum advance.

[FuzzFace2]

Gary Lewis wrote

I'm glad you are figuring out the stiffness of the springs.  And I think you are on the right track.  But would like to point out two things.

First, it looks to me like the MSD heavy spring has a circular end rather than a slot like the factory's heavy spring.  With the slot you are just using the light spring initially, and then both springs.  But without the slot you'll be using both springs all the time.  And the difference is that you will have less advance early in the RPM range with the MSD spring, regardless of how strong it is.

Second, lets talk about the R13 & R18 slots and advance rates.  You said that in the R13 slot and with the "recurve" you had a total of 27 degrees of advance at 2000 RPM, and the initial was at 14 degrees.  That seems to say that "R13" means 13 total or crank degrees.

However, the other test showed a total of 24 degrees at 1500 RPM with an initial of 16, so there's something amiss somewhere as you should have had 29 degrees total.  One possibility is that you were already into the centrifugal advance at your idle speed of 800 RPM.  And that seems to fit because you had the max of 24 degrees at 1500 RPM where the other test had the max at 2000 RPM, so the curve was starting much earlier.  In fact, in the test run at 14 degrees you were just starting to get advance at 1000 RPM, but on the 16 degree test you had a consistent 2 degrees of advance at 1000.

I say all of that to say that I think you have way too light of springs in the dizzy.  If you want to have initial timing at 16 degrees then I think you need much stronger springs to delay the start point of the centrifugal advance, and I suggest you go with the blue and silver MSD combo.  Then I think you can go to the R18 slot to get the total of 34 degrees, but at a much higher RPM, which will prevent pinging.

And once you have a solid, non-pinging, base you can move on to tuning the vacuum advance.

So this heavy spring with the slot it would almost be like a 2 stage advance.
It advance the weak spring up to the point the heavy spring play is taken up then the heavy spring kicks in. Now I / we may not see this 2 step advance if it is smooth enough right?

Now on the different test readings I posted.
The first test was at 16* BTDC, vacuum disconnected the way it was from the factory with who knows how many miles?

The second test was after I took the dist. apart, did a good cleaning & light oil lube before putting it back together with the Mr. G weak spring. The timing was also set to 14* BTDC as the pinging was pretty bad at 16* BTDC.
I think the cleaning & light oil lube made the advance greater even with timing set 2* retard from the first testing but that is just a guess.

In any event I need to get the advance to start later than my first test.
I will go with the blue spring, measure the old & new heavy springs and decide what spring I will use and use the R18 slot in the plate and see what happens.

I also know I need to get the centrifugal advance under control before moving on to the vacuum advance dial in.

Thank you guys for the help.
Dave ----

[Gary Lewis]

Yes, I think you have it.  Good luck!

And, food for thought: It is better to have a bit less centrifugal advance than too much.  Unless you are really trying hard to accelerate, meaning you have very little vacuum, then the vacuum advance can be tuned to take up the slack.  But if you have too much centrifugal then you'll have pinging and nothing works right.

[FuzzFace2]

Gary Lewis wrote

Yes, I think you have it.  Good luck!

And, food for thought: It is better to have a bit less centrifugal advance than too much.  Unless you are really trying hard to accelerate, meaning you have very little vacuum, then the vacuum advance can be tuned to take up the slack.  But if you have too much centrifugal then you'll have pinging and nothing works right.

Based on what the vacuum advance has added in the past testing, it added a LOT!
So yes little less on the centrifugal would be the way to go.
Dave ----

[85lebaront2]

Let me try once again to explain spark advance and how it works and affects the engine.

First, mechanical advance (centrifugal) is geared to what the engine needs for best power. Not enough and you don't get the power, too much and you get detonation. Race engines, industrial and marine engines use only mechanical advance systems. These are for best power and are not concerned with economy. Different engines, react differently to total advance, and an engine that is lugged (heavily loaded at low rpm) can and will destroy itself, usually by burning or grenading a piston. Ford engines are fairly forgiving, but still need a proper curve. Best example I can give on the is the Engine Masters competition. A good friend in Newport News and his son run big block Chevrolet engines. Engine Masters changed the format a few years ago, old program was to run you engine in its best power range, several pulls being averaged, new program, everyone runs from your engine's idle, to max rpm. Chevy 396/454 engines were designed to fit in place of the 348/409 W engines so it is only a little bigger that a small block Chevy, Since the 454 has a longer stroke than a 460, the rods have a lot of angularity to the cylinder walls, the cylinders are siamesed so cooling becomes an issue. The 460 "lugs" quite well, as do the 300 and the Ford 400

On your engine. the stroke is 3.98 inches, cooling is good for an in-line engine, but the longer stroke takes more time for the mixture to burn so it is a fine line between enough advance and detonation. I would temporarily disconnect the vacuum advance, and concentrate on, best power and running with the centrifugal advance only. I do not know if someone has a coolant flow modification on these like the Chrysler Turbocharged fours. Water enters the block near the bottom of #1 cylinder and flows toward the flywheel end, it comes up into the head at several locations and exits through a "water box" between # 3 and #4 cylinders. These engines are prone to heat problems at #4 combustion chamber and are frequently fitted with a bleed off in the end of the head.

Vacuum advance is the system that was added sometime in the 30s or 40s to improve fuel economy. It's purpose is to give the engine all the advance it needs for best economy. It can give some detonation, particularly at light throttle, Engineers found that the EGR flow could and would reduce this. I would get the engine where it runs best on the mechanical advance first, then start experimenting with adding vacuum a little at a time. This should have a beneficial effect on fuel economy.

[grumpin]

Thanks Bill! And thanks Dave, Gary and all inputting on this. This is very helpful.

[FuzzFace2]

Well I got back into the dist. and made some changes.
As seen below I pulled the weak Mr. Gasket spring and replaced it with the heavier blue MSD spring.
I also did the "pull test" between the heavy MSD spring and the factory heavy spring.
Believe it or not the factory spring was heavier so I left it installed.
I also moved the centrifugal limit slot from R13 to R18

In putting the dist. back together again the plan was to install the new "right" vacuum advance can.
Well it did not fit the body of the dist. so it will go back to the parts store and if the factory one dose not work out I will look into a Crane Cam one.

Now why I think the vacuum can did not fit is the dist. is not a 1981?
Below is the number off the tag on the dist. can some one tell me anything about it?


I could not do a timing curve test, no help, but I did put the timing light to it and a road test as so far I am liking what I have seen.
The RPM dose come up a lot more before the centrifugal advance kicks in.
I was also able to set the timing to 14* to 15* BTDC and not get any pinging on the road test I did.
I hope to do the curving test this weekend with help from my son.
Dave  ----

[FuzzFace2]

Last night in bed reflecting back on the day past I got to thinking about the dist. spring swap and not remembering if I put the flat washer & E clip back on the breaker plate?

So this morning I fired up the shop heater, was 32* in the garage
and checked the dish I had the parts in and sure enough the washer & clip were in it.
So that was the first order to get that put back together as I needed the truck to take the trash to the dump.

I also seen a little coolant on the floor and took up on the lower hose clamp as that looked like were it was coming from. I hope its not the radiator as it is only 2 years old.

I also had a little gas leak when I would fill the rear tank from the fill hose.
It was always hard to see just were when it happened as you would need to lay on the ground and that was not going to happen at the station.
Well I got under there with a good light and took up a little in the 2 clamps that hold the 2 hoses to the pipe used to make the fill hose reach the fill door & tank.

When looking I seen a little hole and remembered there was a screw in the hose that I removed when making this all fit. I was lucky that it was at the pipe and the first clamp was on the wrong side of the hole so I added a 2nd clamp and hope that fixes the leak when filling. Will see at next fill up and that is not far away.

On the trash run I dont think I am getting any pinging. The noise I hear I think is exh. noise at the EFI Y pipe and front pipe. Could also be from the welded muffler as it gives a strange sound over a factory muffler.

I returned the 2nd vacuum advance can as it did not fit and did not try for another so got my money back.
Once I got the centrifugal advance set I will give the factory can a try as it does advance & adjusts I just did not know if it would be in the right range for my use.
Dave ----