Heat Shield For Starter?

[ArdWrknTrk]

Every one I've ever installed had  a dramatic warning against doing exactly that.
If the starter hangs, and gets overdriven, it will self energize.
But hey? What could happen?

Don't worry, it's sarcasm.

Cory just posted a picture of his new (Ford) Motorcraft coolant sender.
I asked him which number he asked for at the Parts Window.

Sorry I didnt make this post a half hour ago.

[kramttocs]

Haha so I guess I can keep installing motorcraft parts in blissful ignorance?

[Dorsai]

kramttocs wrote

Haha so I guess I can keep installing motorcraft parts in blissful ignorance?

That's the best kind of ignorance there is!  

[kramttocs]

You got me curious so I just ran out to the shop to look at the instructions that came with the powermaster unit to make sure I wasn't just making stuff up.
They actually say the jumper between the starter posts is an option ("not included but can be made from a piece of 12awg wire and two ring terminals" [their wording]).
I don't doubt the warnings on the ones you have installed though. This unit's instructions are the only I've ever read so didn't really think about one option being safer than the other.

[kramttocs]

A complete rabbit trail and way off topic, but your comment got me thinking just what other kinds of ignorance there are
Stumbled across a website that listed 5 different kinds of ignorance. Who knew? I dare say I feel a little less ignorant about ignorance now.

[ArdWrknTrk]

Ok, I'll bite.    

I'm ignorant of anything more than blissful, willful, downright and sheer.    

Just what other kind of ignorance is there?

[85lebaront2]

The big problem with the original starter is it's extremely high current draw, I don't remember exactly how high but it's way up there. The original Ford relays on the fender were designed to handle the current draw without much problem, where the problem today lies is that most sources are now getting the relays made in China. The copper alloy the Chinese ones use is apparently very soft, and after a few times of making and breaking the connection, they are extremely prone to welding the contacts together resulting in the starter continuing to run even after the key is released. If you have a truck with the DS-II system, turning the key off when this happens will not kill the engine, the resistor bypass circuits (until 1985 and maybe after) will continue to power the ignition.

The solenoid shift starter whether PMGR or the older Delco style that was on the car 429/460 engines in the late 60s and 70s, still can draw a ton of current if you jumper the positive stud on the solenoid to the S terminal. This is how the lower line cars (Ford, Mercury) were usually wired. The Lincoln Mark III had a different system, and was wired more like a GM car (Start wire from switch to neutral safety to S terminal on starter). Most Ford ignition switches and associated wiring can't handle the current draw of the solenoid and will burn up.

A standard Bosch relay can handle the PMGR solenoid with no problem, that is what most later Fords that were factory built with a PMGR starter use underhood for the starter.

[ArdWrknTrk]

Bill,

Chris's relay was copper plated iron. (Core & contact in one piece)

I had posted the draw of my PMGR on FTE.
For the solenoid, 40A inrush to pull, and 13A to hold. (so, yes most cube relays can do it)

I forget exactly what the motor draw was
Maybe I can find the sheet somewhere.
Then I could show the warning.

[kramttocs]

This site (I won't list a link as I don't exactly know what the site is for) listed:

Innocent, willful, arrogant, domain, and enlightened.

I think I prefer your four though :)

[kramttocs]

My 1980 with the stock starter on the 400 had that problem intermittently (starter solenoid would get stuck until I pulled the power or hit the solenoid hard enough) so just last week I swapped the junky one out with a motorcraft unit (possibly just a little less junky  ).

I think we are on the same page that swapping to a pmgr setup is an improvement. My whole point was just that whether you swap to a Precision pmgr, Powermaster, or stay with stock the roadside issue wouldn't be significant.

[ArdWrknTrk]

And I agree!  

[ArdWrknTrk]

I was waiting to get bit with "you're so ignorant, you don't even know ignorant!"

[Steve83]

85lebaront2 wrote

The big problem with the original starter is it's extremely high current draw...

It's only ~50A (~25%) higher than PMGR, assuming both starters, the engines, & the cranking systems (including battery terminals) are working right.  I'm still using the old-style starter on my Bronco, and it works fine.

85lebaront2 wrote

The original Ford relays on the fender were designed to handle the current draw without much problem, where the problem today lies is that most sources are now getting the relays made in China. The copper alloy the Chinese ones use is apparently very soft...

Designed, but not very well; the originals were still susceptible to the same failure.



Modern Copper (even from china) is superior.  It's the old relay's DESIGN that causes those failures.  The newer relay's design is superior.

85lebaront2 wrote

A standard Bosch relay can handle the PMGR solenoid with no problem, that is what most later Fords that were factory built with a PMGR starter use underhood for the starter.

The '92-96 system (first Fs with PMGR) used the new ignition switch to directly-power the starter relay, which only triggered the PMGR solenoid, as that diagram I posted before shows.  This shows more of the circuit:

[85lebaront2]

Gee, Steve, maybe on a six cylinder that might be correct, but on a hot 460 (first starter is right under the right exhaust manifold, and almost into the frame) I had a parts store measure my old movable pole piece starter at nearly 200 amps breakaway current, it dropped noticeably once the engine started turning.

Note the starter solenoid, manifold for this side is a rear outlet and drops below the ports.


As for the starter relay, here is page 20-2 from my 1996 EVTM:

Note it shows the starter relay.


Here is the relay on my truck before Jim was kind enough to find me an actual 1995 battery cable set from an F450 with a 460 engine:

[ArdWrknTrk]

Bill,
I've always seen the same old relay.

When did Ford start with that weird 'Y' shaped *red* cable?

[85lebaront2]

Somewhere between 1992 and 1995. If you notice the battery sits opposite the older models, the positive cable used to be near the fender with the negative going first to the frame, then to the front of the engine block.

The later system has the cables swapped moving the positive back and in and the negative goes back to the lower starter bolt which is now a double ended one with a nut. They also started running a negative pigtail to the inner fender area.

Let me get a more recent picture of the starter relay/battery setup.

[ArdWrknTrk]

So about the same time that the PMGR starters came into play....  

[85lebaront2]

Probably, because the rear cable is the "trigger" wire for the solenoid.

[ArdWrknTrk]

Right.

So the relay (with the Y) was there to trigger the starter solenoid.

IDK. I must be living under a rock (or in mom's basement) because I'm not familiar with it being any other way in the Ford trucks I've worked on.

[85lebaront2]

Pictures as requested.

First, battery and cables looking toward the right fender:

Rear post is the hot on the relay, front is the "trigger" wire for the starter solenoid.

Second, battery from front:


Third, relay and ground pigtail: