Don's (Pebcak) 351 upgrade Project

[ArdWrknTrk]

No, no! The INTAKE manifold

[Gary Lewis]

I think you are fairly close.  I estimate that it costs a minimum of $2000 to rebuild an engine, and you'll guessing $2100.  

[FuzzFace2]

The picture of the EXH. manifolds I don't think a see the valve I was talking of so wonder how the hot gat is forced to the intake?

Pebcak wrote

A father bought this truck from a farmer about 10 years ago and had the engine "Freshened Up" and got it all working to drive for this son.  When he gave it to his teenage son it was not appreciated and the child said something to the effect of "I'm not driving it."  The father said fine and sold it to the guy I bought it from.  
That's about all I know before me owning it.

That is close to the story I go of my truck.
A father bought this truck from a farmer for a father & son project.  When he gave it to his teenage son it was not appreciated and the child said something to the effect of "I'm not driving it."  The father said fine and sold it to me.
He did use it to move things about his land and to teach his son to drive stick.
Being they were moving and son wanted no part of it it went up for sale.
Dave ----

[ArdWrknTrk]

Maybe an '80-'83 manifold instead of '84-'87?


https://shop.broncograveyard.com/Exhaust-Parts/products/24/

I know the bolt on valve you're talking about, but really, exhaust pulses work fine. (at least in all 460's)

[Rembrant]

Pebcak wrote

This is just me thinking with my knowledge.  All of y'all that have done rebuilds before know better than I do. I know I'm probably missing something.

I think you have it all well under control Pebcak!
What are your plans for gaskets and seals? Buying a kit? If your truck didn't already have it, a 1pc oil pan gasket is nice. I don't know when they switched over to 1pc gaskets...sometime in the later 80's...'87? Somebody on here will know. I installed one of the Fel-Pro Perma-Dry Plus gaskets...they're like 4x the price of the 4pc cork jobbie...so $32 instead of $8 bucks, but a little peace of mind I suppose. I used the same ones for the valve cover gaskets, and again, they're expensive, but seal nicely.

When I bought my '84 w/302 a couple years ago it was really low mile...but the 35 year old gaskets were leaking like the Exxon Valdez!!

Something else I did was buy my front and rear main seals from Ford, but had the engine shop install them. I'm sure the aftermarket seals are fine, but somebody fussier than me suggested the Ford OEM seals, so that is what I went with. They're fairly inexpensive IIRC.

Probably wouldn't hurt to get the engine shop to check the oil pump when they have the block. They can measure it to make sure it's still within spec.

Are you going to be installing the cylinder heads on the block yourself? Check the head bolt holes in the block...specially the lower ones, and see if they're open to the coolant jacket? If yes, then you will need to use a thread sealant on them. This may only be an issue with the 302...I'm not sure, but sometime in the mid 1980's, Ford lightened up those blocks and the head bolt holes went from being "blind" to open. Somebody on here may know more about this topic than me, but it's something to keep in mind. If you're getting the engine shop to assemble the heads on the block, then it's not a worry for you, but you can bring it up with them anyway.

If you're going to install the engine at home and do your own break-in, etc, it wouldn't hurt to order an oil pump priming rod. I think they're pretty cheap. When I arrived at the engine shop the day they were breaking in and dyno tuning my engine, they were priming the oil system when I got there. The drill had the trigger lock on and the handle was up against the radiator hose.



Just thought I'd throw some ideas out there while I was having my morning coffee (the first cup!). I know this is a budget build and it's easy for me to spend your money...lol, but just some ideas is all;).

[ArdWrknTrk]

'mornin Cory!  

Good gaskets are a must! That's why I suggested the three brands I did.

In addition to the one piece pan gasket, when I went to cast valve covers a couple of years ago I bought red silicone 'Lifetime' gaskets.

I've got to say these have been great.  
Cast covers are ridgid, and the flange can't distort.
My 460 hasn't been this dry in over a decade.  

Oil pumps are inexpensive, so is a new drive shaft.
I think I would always go new, but the engine builder might think this not necessary.

Which brings us back to Chance's quote.
Is this for short block or long block?
There I was assuming that it would be long block, with the heads, valve train, and all installed.
Just needing intake, front dress and tin to complete.

Good to point out sealant though.
Some water pump bolts and those through the timing case need sealing, and some corrosion protection.

I bought a ~$40 stainless steel bolt set from The Bolt Locker through eBay when I swapped engines 11 years ago.
That was a godsend!
No rust, no exhaust manifold bolts that are just a random shaped blob.
Things are different in Texas where they don't see snow and the salts associated with it

[Gary Lewis]

Those are good ideas, Cory.  

I didn't know the 351W went to open holes on the head bolts.  I've not dealt with newer W's so didn't know.  But lots of engines did have open holes somewhere, and you have to use sealant on those bolts.  

On the one-piece pan gasket, I don't know when that changed either.

[Rembrant]

Gary Lewis wrote

I didn't know the 351W went to open holes on the head bolts.  

I don't know that it did, but it wouldn't hurt to check. I know with the 302 it is commonly assumed that change in the block showed up when they changed it to a roller cam (1985 for the Mustang, and 1987 for the trucks). However, my 1984 flat tappet block had open head bolt holes.

[Pebcak]

ArdWrknTrk wrote

Maybe an '80-'83 manifold instead of '84-'87?

If I clean up my manifolds what will that help me with?  This "valve" that has been asked about?  Just wondering.

Rembrant wrote

Pebcak wrote

This is just me thinking with my knowledge.  All of y'all that have done rebuilds before know better than I do. I know I'm probably missing something.

I think you have it all well under control Pebcak!
What are your plans for gaskets and seals? Buying a kit? If your truck didn't already have it, a 1pc oil pan gasket is nice. I don't know when they switched over to 1pc gaskets...sometime in the later 80's...'87? Somebody on here will know. I installed one of the Fel-Pro Perma-Dry Plus gaskets...they're like 4x the price of the 4pc cork jobbie...so $32 instead of $8 bucks, but a little peace of mind I suppose. I used the same ones for the valve cover gaskets, and again, they're expensive, but seal nicely.

Just thought I'd throw some ideas out there while I was having my morning coffee (the first cup!). I know this is a budget build and it's easy for me to spend your money...lol, but just some ideas is all;).

I've added the seals to the Google Sheet that's on Page 3.  Thank You all for those suggestions.  I have the Exhaust and Header seals when we thought it was just those seals.  I'll probably end up buying a whole set of the same brand.

And don't worry about throwing out any ideas.  This is how I'm learning!

ArdWrknTrk wrote

In addition to the one piece pan gasket, when I went to cast valve covers a couple of years ago I bought red silicone 'Lifetime' gaskets.

Oil pumps are inexpensive, so is a new drive shaft.
I think I would always go new, but the engine builder might think this not necessary.

Which brings us back to Chance's quote.
Is this for short block or long block?
There I was assuming that it would be long block, with the heads, valve train, and all installed.
Just needing intake, front dress and tin to complete.

Good to point out sealant though.
Some water pump bolts and those through the timing case need sealing, and some corrosion protection.

I bought a ~$40 stainless steel bolt set from The Bolt Locker through eBay when I swapped engines 11 years ago.
Things are different in Texas where they don't see snow and the salts associated with it

I added the gaskets, oil pump, stainless steel bolts and sealant to the list.

I'm assuming it was for a long block but by the time we take it there it'll probably be a short block with parts to install   Sooooo, I'm "hoping" that the price may change a little in my favor.

Great ideas guys!  Thank You again!

[ArdWrknTrk]

If you look at the page I linked you'll see where certain years have a ball end on both manifolds, and the other years have a flat flange on one side (for that problematic valve to attach)
Luckily, for you, it's already been dealt with.

Definitions:

Short block: rotating assembly and cam installed. Timing chain,
NO heads or valve train.

Long block: the above Plus; heads, lifters, pushrods, rockers, timing case, oil pump, etc.

Neither has an intake manifold, exhaust manifolds, water pump, distributor, carburetor, harmonic damper, any pulleys or things like alternator, steering pump, AC compressor, or any of their brackets.

Neither has any 'Tin' = valve covers, oil pan.

Unless you have deep pockets like Gary and Cory, who had their engines run in on a Dyno.

[Pebcak]

First things first, Sorry to all for being Dark on here for over a year.  Life, Covid and "Adulting" has gotten in the way.

Secondly, I've been in the early stages of starting the work on the Beast again.

About a month ago I went to a shop to see about bringing in the short block to get it checked and rebuilt.  The shop was going to get me a quote sheet for all the work I could have done to fit my budget.  A month later waiting they stopped answering emails and calls.  After that I asked around and a coworker pointed me in the direction of some local guys.  So, tomorrow I’m visiting that local shop.  They mainly deals with carbureted drag/race engines.  Hopefully I’ll be getting some good information from them!

Some good news is that I have a line on a “running“ 351W with EFI (that I can see) that is being sold for $300.  I’m meeting the guy today around 5 PM TX time.  According to him, “The guy I bought it from refreshed it and the engine has around 60K on it.”  “Everything works but my boss is selling a fully rebuild and higher HP 351W to me that I’m putting in this weekend.”  I’ll take a gander at it and will probably get it  for parts or if I did crack my block way back when.

A big Thank You to Gary for letting me ask him some questions on the fly and his opinion while I was driving. Deals like this don’t pop up often and I wanted to get a second opinion before getting home from work.

Here is the ONLY photo I have for it.  



There will be updates and more to come soon.

I might even look into the pros and cons of EFI.  I don't know yet.

[Gary Lewis]

Life has a habit of taking precedence over trucks, and family certain comes higher on the list than trucks. No prob.

As for helping, happy to do so. Hope the engine turns out to be everything you want. 👍

[ArdWrknTrk]

Thanks for the update, Don.  
We all understand that sometimes we need to step back and prioritize life.

Glad to hear everything's ok.

[Pebcak]

Went to see the engine and I was so excited that I verified that it was a 351W but.....  It's in a 1992 F250.....  So thankfully it was only 20 mins from the house so no big deal.  Plus it was pretty "used" so I wouldn't have gotten it anyways.  If there is ever a next time I'll make sure that it's a 80's F150...

Tomorrow afternoon I'm going to the engine shop close to me to talk to the owner face to face.  I called and he already knew of me because my coworker talked to him.  Hopefully I'll have a price guesstimate and be able to get it into the shop soon.

[Gary Lewis]

If it doesn't run well it isn't worth the money nor the effort.  I hope the meeting tomorrow works out for you.

[Pebcak]

I went to the second engine shop last weekend and the gentleman was very honest and said that they deal only with high hp engines there.  Most of his rebuilds are Jasper's.  He had a 700 HP truck and Aretha Franklin's Cadillac in his shop.  It was cool to see each but nothing for me.  Today/tomorrow I'm calling the third shop to find out pricing and how far out they are.

Just finished chatting with a Comp Cams technician and he suggested that I get the Xtreme Energy 218/224 Hydraulic Flat Cam for Ford 351W for my rebuild.  He said that the 260H and XE250H "are a bit too small.."  

He typed all of this..

- Stock heads are 9:1 compression
- 35-283-3...1300-5600 RPMs
- 218/224 duration @ .50" and .493/.500 lift with a LS of 100

He also said the Eledbrock Performer intake 2181 will work well with the cam he selected.

I wanted to get a 2nd, 3rd, etc.... opinions if this is sounding right before I pull the trigger on the Cam kit and the intake.  What do y'all think?

Hopefully this weekend I'll have some time to take the Torque converter and flex plate off the engine.  Then put it on the stand and start getting it all ready to take to "a" shop.

Thanks in advance for any suggestions or ideas!

[Gary Lewis]

Welcome to why I bought basically a crate engine for Big Blue.

As for the cam, I don't know that I agree with the guy.  First, he's wrong on the compression ratio.  Ford said the '86 351HO had 8.3:1 compression.  But, if I were you, I'd up that to the 9:1 he mentioned.  Or go with aluminum heads and 10:1.

And, I don't know that I'd want my torque coming in at 1300.  That's not bad, but I usually shoot for more like 1000.

Anyway, let's see what the others say as they know more about this than I do.

[ArdWrknTrk]

I think it really depends on your realistic purpose for this truck, Don.

Maybe he auto corrected from "Stock heads *at 9:1"?
That could be pistons -or- decking the block, but I definitely wouldn't want to build an engine at less compression than that.

Cam range depends on converter stall, but I agree with Gary, if you're using the stock converter you might want to advance that cam or choose another.

Aluminum heads are a spendy option and typically everything needs to be set up.
Spring seat heights, rocker heights, port match, etc....

[Pebcak]

My main purpose is a daily to and from work 50-60 mi a day, 5 days a week.  Add in a little bit of fun playing with it here and there with my son.

I got with Comp Cams again and talked to another techinican. He agrees if I'm at the 8.3:1 I could use the XE250H. "It will work better with the lower compression and won't feel too sluggish."  But, if it's 9:1 then the 35-283-3 cam would work because I "can run a bigger cam with more compression."

So, I'd guess that I should go with the XE250H then?  That way it won't "feel too sluggish?"  Or with the minuscule differences (at least to me) would it really make a difference which I chose with what I'm wanting to do?

My son surprised me with the heads for Fathers Day a couple years ago.  My wife said he paid a good penny to get one head rebuilt and the other replaced because I cracked it.  Call me weird, but the sentimental value of using those heads means more to me than getting new ones.

I'm hoping to call the engine shop today as long as no "fires" pop up here at work to take care of.

[ArdWrknTrk]

I agree, your son really wanted to make a contribution and it wouldn't be right if your engine didn't wear those heads.

But you haven't even tanked and inspected the short block.
You have options to get to 9:1 (or more!)

Taller pistons
Deck the block
Stroker crank

Pick your poison. 😈