Could the axle/spindle bearing be the problem?

[BigDav782]

Morning all,

I've been slowly working my way through the front wheel assemblies on my '85 F150 with 4wd, with the ultimate goal of eliminating the very loud grinding noise that won't seem to go away.  I've replaced wheel bearings on both sides, u-joints on both sides (except the inner one on the passenger side, which can't do without pulling the front diff), and replaced both u-joints on my driveshaft, all to no avail.  The only thing I an come up with now is perhaps the axle/spindle bearing(s)?  Or, perhaps improper adjustment on the wheel bearings when I replaced them, or (unlikely) a bad set of new wheel bearings?  

Notes on the sound:
-Starts at about 7mph (if it was brake related, wouldn't it be at all speeds?)
-No change if forward or reverse, 4wd or 2wd, turning or going straight
-No change if put transmission in neutral when coasting
-Very consistent with speed
-Coming from the front, seems to be more on the drivers side

I'd prefer not to go back into the front hubs if I don't need to, which is why I'm asking for your thoughts first.  

Thanks much!
Dave

[Gary Lewis]

I don't blame you on not wanting to go back into the hubs.  

Hard to imagine what it might be to start at 7 MPH and not do it below that.  I was going to suggest it might be a rock between the brake rotor and backing plate, but that should do it at all speeds.

Have you tried jacking the front wheels up, one at a time, and rotating them?

If you don't have it in 4wd on the t-case and don't have the hubs locked in the drive axles shouldn't rotate, so it shouldn't be those bearings.

[BigDav782]

Thanks Gary.  I did try jacking up the driver front wheel yesterday and rotating it - couldn't get it fast enough to make the sound, as it rubbed on the brakes after about 3/4 of a turn.  Even extra elbow grease and bacon power couldn't get it fast enough to power through that brake rub and spin them faster.  

I didn't even think about the fact that the axle shouldn't be spinning if not in 4WD and hubs locked, so loud noise isn't likely that bearing.  

Seems hard for me to believe that a slight adjustment problem on the wheel bearings would cause this noise - I closely followed the manual on how to do it (50 ft-lbs while rotating wheel, then back it off 45 degrees).  Also hard for me to believe it's bad bearing(s) from the start - they were new Timken bearings from RockAuto, and I greased them with a wheel bearing grease attachment thing.  Haven't driven it more than 200 miles since then.  

Hmm.

[Gary Lewis]

It sounds like you did the adjustment correctly on the wheel bearings, and I doubt new bearings are bad.  But I'd still jack it up and see if you can get things to wiggle.  Maybe you didn't get the new seats fully pressed in?  If so they sometimes go ahead and seat, so then the bearings will be loose.

[Bruce moose4x4]

If you lock in the hubs does it stop making the noise? Could be in the lockout.

[BigDav782]

Unfortunately no - locking the hubs, even shifting the transfer case to 4wd, doesn't change the sound.  

There should be some interference between the brake pads and rotors, even without brakes applied, right?  Or should I be more seriously thinking about the brakes being the issue?  I would think the sound would change when I applied (or released) the brakes, if they were the problem.

Sure feels like I need to go back to the wheel bearings - I'll give that a shot today.

[BigDav782]

I readjusted the bearing last night - it didn't feel loose at all but seemed like the next logical step.  No change to the sound.

Starting to feel like I should just replace the bearings entirely, right?  Still seems very unlikely that brand-new bearings somehow failed, but I don't know what else could be making such a loud and dramatic sound, especially with when it makes the sound (anything over 5mph, same sound if in 4wd or reverse, same sound if coasting in N, same sound if braking or not braking, same sound if turning or going straight).  

But if I'm going in there again, would it make sense to replace the rotor and the pads at the same time, just in case those are contributing/causing the issue?  If I replace the rotor, should I also replace the hub (as a single unit), or keep the stock hub and separate it from the old rotor?

[old55pete]

Just a question because it sounds to me like the calliper is hung up. I say that because the wheel should turn freeley when spun by hand. What I am suggesting is removing the wheel and the caliper. put the wheel back on with a couple of lug nuts and give it a hard spin and see what happens. If it stops after 3/4 of a turn then I would go after the bearings. If it just keeps going then I would give a hard look at the caliper. The piston may be sticking and keeping a clamping force on the rotor. It could be that there is air in the caliper. Air gets hot, it expands, pushes the piston out, pad run on rotor and makes scraping noise.

Just some food for thought

[BigDav782]

Thanks Steve, that seems like a very logical thing to try next - at least will help me justify what parts to start replacing.  

If it turns smooth and the brakes are the suspect:
-Replace the caliper or service it?  Seems like remanufactured are pretty cheap so feels like replace is easiest
-If replacing the caliper, do I also replace rotor and pads at the same time?
-If I replace rotors/pads, I should replace on both sides at same time right?
-Any tips for caliper stuff?  Haven't done anything like that yet to date

[old55pete]

If it is in fact a stuck caliper, the cheapest thing to do is replace it, But replace both at the same time and bleed them out good.

As for the pads, that would depend on you. If they have a bunch of friction materal left on them, I would reuse them, Thats a call that you are going to have to make. Rule of thumb I have always gone by, if the friction material is the same thickness as the backing plate or less, I replace them.

Another thought is on the rotors. Having worked in repair shops for years, In most states it is law that when the pads are replaced, at a minimum the rotors, the rotors must be measured to make sure they wont go under size after being resurfaced. Then resurface them. If they will go undersize, replace them. The dealers will tell you this, the shops will tell you this and this is what I do because I dont like squeaking brakes and brakes that wear out before they should. Others will tell you that you dont have to do the rotors and that is up to you

[BigDav782]

I could really use some help here - feeling down and frustrated by my current (lack of) progress.

Here is what I've done in my latest repair round, trying to quiet this awful noise from the front:
-Replaced both rotors and wheel hubs with new
-Replaced both calipers with remanufactured
-Replaced both sets of brake pads with new
-Replaced both locking hubs with new (Warn)
-Replaced both front brake hoses, and both brake lines that feed to proportioning valve
-Replaced both sets of bearings

All of this did exactly squat to address the sound, and to boot, now I have squishy brakes, which I suspect will lead me to dealing with the master cylinder/brake booster/rear brakes.  

I'm having a hard time getting the energy to keep replacing parts, when I'm still stuck at this spot that I've been at for many months, and still can't comfortably drive the truck.

Any suggestions?

My only last thought is that perhaps the spindle itself on the driver's side is bad.  The inside of both bearings on that side were scored, and they were brand new about 50 miles ago.  I put new bearings in to be safe, since they are cheap and I was already in that far.  That spindle is definitely more corroded than the passengers side, but I would have thought that with all this work, the sound would have at least changed, even if it didn't completely go away.  But it's still exact same characteristics as originally noted.

If yes on the spindle, any advice on where to get one?

Thanks in advance

[Gary Lewis]

Have you done as Steve suggested and pulled a wheel, pulled a caliper, reinstalled the wheel, and spun it?  If so, what were the results?

That test, assuming the hub isn't locked and the axle shaft doesn't turn, gets down to just bearings and the hub.  So if you have noise then you can check those more closely.

Having said that, if the new bearings are scored then you probably know the culprit.  But, if I remember correctly, neither bearing runs directly on the spindle.  Right?

Do you have pics of how it goes together and how the bearings are scored?

[BigDav782]

Yep - noise was still present, so that eliminated the caliper and brake pads.  I replaced both halves of the hub (the manual part that you turn to lock the wheel, as well as the mating piece that attaches directly to the rotor), so I don't think either of those can still be the problem.  

I think you are right that scored bearings are a key clue, especially when they only had 50 miles on them and were brand new.  

The bearings were scored on the inside - I already threw them otherwise I'd take a picture. But I'm pretty confident the bearings directly run on the spindle - I'm not sure what else they would run on if not.  Check out the attached snapshot.  The circled spindle is the piece that was corroded on the drivers side.  



I tried to get a spindle at a junkyard yesterday (new ones online are pretty expensive).  It was a bear to get off because of all the rust, and ultimately was in terrible condition.