Big Blue's Transformation

[Gary Lewis]

Dane - I see what you mean.  No, I didn't "feel them seat".  In fact, the only feeling I had was to have the breakover taken out of my hands rudely.

Perhaps at something less than 100 psi I could hold it, but at that pressure it overpowers me.  And it is abrupt.  Just a bit off TDC and it has the leverage on me and rotates a bit more, which gives it more leverage, and it is GONE!

At this point I've already put the engine in the "too worn for me" category, and unless something changes I plan to sell it intact.  It should be desirable with its Edelbrock Performer intake, cam, and water pump.  But I have no idea how much to ask.  Any ideas?

[Gary Lewis]

Some news today. First, I got the BW1345 kit and yoke in, and it looks good.

Next, I got the Dana44HD rolled out of the shop:

And I followed the instructions in TSB 97-3-10 and checked for what is making the "pop" in the front end. The first stop was to pull the steering gear box and check behind it. No cracks! Then I tapped all the rivets with a little hammer, but none had an odd nose to it. Last, I checked the Huck bolt:

Then I laid out where I think I want to cut the crossmember. Here are two views, with the front view on the left and the rear view on the right. Please tell me what you think of my plans, meaning the white line.

[1986F150Six]

My only comment is that you have accomplished a lot!

[salans7]

Did we ever figure out the probability of a truck having a huck bolt? Both of my 4x2 frames had/have rivets and not huck bolts in that location.

Also, no frame cracks means less time spent working and more time enjoying.

You've got enough on your plate from .

[grumpin]

Nice find on the huck bolt!

Not the one to comment on your plan, but that shape that was cut out resembles a slice of bread.

What does  eat?

[Gary Lewis]

David - Thanks, but it didn't really feel like it today.  However, I did mow the yard.  

Shaun - That TSB says "This fastener could be either a standard cold head rivet in light duty applications or a large “huck” bolt which has the appearance of a large “pop” rivet."  So I'm guessing that 2wd may be considered "light duty"?  Both Dad's truck and Big Blue had the huck bolt.

And, you are absolutely right that no cracks saves me a lot of time.  I certainly do have enough on my plate.

Dane - I hadn't noticed the shape of the cutout resembles a slice of bread, but you are correct.  Maybe that is what  eats.  It sure would fit.  

All - Just talked to Scott, the Mad Porter.  He said he can build me a short block for $3250, but the shipping will be ~$400.  That doesn't include an oil pan, water pump, nor balancer.  I think he said that it would make about 380 HP.

But, the cam he recommends we use has a bit more lift than the heads may be set up for, so I'd have to have the guides topped slightly.  (And, by the way, he REALLY doesn't like the Eddy Performer cam.)

I also sent an email to 460efiguys to see what they can do.  And, I sent Tim Meyer a text to see what he can do.

[salans7]

By light duty I'm sure they're referring to the expected usage of the vehicle, which would explain why your dad's F150 4x4 had one and my former F250 4x2 did not.

As for the bread comment, this  loves his bread. I could eat nothing but rolls for breakfast, lunch, and dinner and be perfectly content. Thanksgiving is one of my favorite times of year because that's when the rolls go on sale.

[Gary Lewis]

I should have commented on Dane's "Nice find on the huck bolt".  That may well be the source of the pop I've been hearing.  It is supposed to hold 3 pieces together, and obviously isn't.  Hopefully replacing it will fix the problem.

[grumpin]

It’s great that you had the info and did find it.

 A side note, my truck was making some horrible noise, seems to be at certain temperatures I think. It seems to be coming from either right rear cab area or right front bed area. Thought maybe it was the toolbox but I couldn’t duplicate pushing on things. Didn’t do it today.

[Gary Lewis]

Dane - Maybe it is something IN the tool box?

As for having the info and, therefore, knowing what to look for, it makes a tremendous difference.  However, I've done this before - on Dad's truck.  So I just went back to the thread on FTE, via the link in my document in the first post of Dad's Truck Build thread, and found two posts where in I described:

How I got the huck bolt out.  My memory ain't what it used to be, or I don't think it is but I really can't remember.  Anyway, apparently it was quite the battle to get the huck bolt out on Dad's truck.  But this describes how I did it.

What bolt I used to replace it.  This post is a gold mine for not only the bolt I used but also the process to get the nut and washer back in there as well as to tighten it.  Sure glad I wrote that up over 5 years ago.

However, the TSB says that once you get the huck bolt out you are supposed to drive a wedge between the crossmember and the frame liner and insert a Bearing Strip (F6TZ-5D033-BA) between the crossmember and the frame liner.  Then you drill through the bearing strip with a 7/16" drill and then ream the frame liner, crossmember, and bearing strip to 9/16".  THAT'S A LOT OF REAMING!

Anyway, I'd never heard of a Bearing Strip, so Googled the part number.  And, wouldn't you know it, there WAS one on ebay for $15 inc shipping.  It is supposed to be here next Thursday.  

But wait, there's more!  The TSB says "ON HEAVY VEHICLES IT MIGHT BE NECESSARY TO UPGRADE THE REPLACEMENT FASTENER TO A 5/8" GRADE 8".  I think I'd classify Big Blue as a "heavy vehicle" so will go to the 5/8" fastener.  But, I'm not reaming from 7/16 to 5/8's, so I may modify the plan slightly.

However, I have a question for y'all.  The TSB says "This procedure should be done on flat ground or on a drive-on lift, with the wheels pointed straight and full weight resting on the wheels."  But, right now there's no engine nor front suspension in the truck, so there shouldn't be any stress whatsoever on those pieces.  Given that, I think I can do the fix now while the huck bolt is easily gotten to and not worry about anything shifting when it is taken out.  But what say you?

[85lebaront2]

I may have to look at that area on Darth, uneven entry departure gets an occasional pop from up front somewhere, and I won't surprised if he has a Huck bolt up there.

[Gary Lewis]

85lebaront2 wrote

I may have to look at that area on Darth, uneven entry departure gets an occasional pop from up front somewhere, and I won't surprised if he has a Huck bolt up there.

I'd bet Darth has one, and it was both on uneven entry/departure as well as tight turns that Big Blue had the pop.

BUT, please don't miss my question.  Don't you think that sitting on the lift with no weight of any kind on the frame, engine crossmember, or frame liner would be the ideal time to replace that bolt?  Nothing there to move anything with the bolt out?

[85lebaront2]

Probably, I would check the holes though.

[Steve83]

Gary Lewis wrote

...I think I can do the fix now while the huck bolt is easily gotten to and not worry about anything shifting when it is taken out.  But what say you?

The issue isn't things shifting while it's out - you actually WANT them to shift and relax where they want to be when all the weight is on the truck.  The point of reaming the hole with the truck bearing all its normal weight is so that there's no preload on that bolt to stress or wear it; or (more-importantly) to wear the edges of the holes as you drive.

If you really want to do the bulk of the work now, and go to the 5/8" eventually, my suggestion is: put the 9/16" bolt in now, and after the truck is assembled, ream it to 5/8".

[grumpin]

X2, what Steve said. I would do as per the instructions.

[Gary Lewis]

Steve/Dane - I see what you are saying.  However, in re-reviewing the TSB I found this, with the upper case and bold being from the TSB:

NOTE
TO PROPERLY REAM THE HOLE ON A VEHICLE WITH LEAF SPRINGS, THE SPRING MUST BE REMOVED TO PROVIDE VERTICAL ACCESS TO THE RIVET HOLE.

But that's in conflict with this statement, with the lack of upper case and bold also from the TSB:

(A) “Huck Fastener” - Lower Left Front #1 Crossmember Rivet Replacement
This procedure should be done on flat ground or on a drive-on lift, with the wheels pointed straight and full weight resting on the wheels.

So, how do you remove the springs and yet have the "full weight resting on the wheels"?  

Perhaps with the D60 and the Super Duty springs in there will be room?

I've also noticed that it says on vehicles with quad shocks it may be necessary to remove the shock tower to gain access to the "window" in the siderail.  There's a window?

Further, it says to torque the nut, then turn the wheel lock to lock several times to seat the joint, then re-torque, then tack weld the nut to the bolt.    Unless there's truly a window in the frame I don't see being able to get in there and tack weld the nut.

I obviously have more research to do.  I think I'll pull the shock tower to see if I can find a window to access that thing.  But, we are headed back to Tulsa this morn, so won't get to it until later this afternoon.

Anyway, keep those thoughts coming in.....

[salans7]

Gary, I circled the area where the "window" would be, if BB had one. I can't recall if my 1980 had the window, however my 86 4x2 frame does. Trucks with leaves didn't get the window, I'm assuming for strength reasons. If you want to see what it looks like, I can run out later after I return from the Dr and snap a pic for you.

[Gary Lewis]

Shaun - Thanks, but no need for the pic.  And, what's this about a doctor's appointment?

I zoomed in on the original pic and you are right - there is no window.  I can see the bottom of the huck bolt, so know where the window would be, but there's just a dark smudge there.

So, instead of tack welding the nut to the bolt it would seem to call for red loctite.  However, that begs the question of when to add the loctite.  It can't be done initially or you can't re-torque the bolt after turning the  wheels back and forth.  And I wouldn't think you would want to loosen the nut enough to get the loctite in there after the initial tightening.  Plus, from what I remember on Dad's truck, tightening that thing is DIFFICULT since you can't get a wrench in there.

Given that, I think I'll see if I can get into it with the MIG and tack it after re-tightening.  

But, having re-read how I was finally able to tighten the bolt on Dad's truck, meaning by using a lathe tool bit between the frame and the nut to keep the nut from turning, doing this on the ground with the engine in sounds extremely difficult.  Luckily I have Dad's truck sitting nearby and can check out what the access is like when the engine is in and it is on the ground.

More later after the run to Tulsa......

[salans7]

I had a respiratory issue a few months ago that caused some pain in my upper chest, and that turned into me finding out about a minor arrhythmia so I've been seeing a Cardiologist for a check up and hopefully I only have one more appointment after this with him. At the same time I'm visiting my PCP because I've had two respiratory events this year and want to get a baseline on where the childhood asthma I once had may be, and whether it has come back. Nothing major, just preventative stuff.


As for the huck bolt, you'll have to treat it the same way you did Dad's truck. But not having the spring in the way will help because you'll have better access to the bolt from below. I couldn't imagine trying to do that job with the stock negative arch springs in place. Maybe it's easier on a truck with an RSK, but it's better to do it now instead of trying to find out later.

[Gary Lewis]

Sorry to hear/see about your ills.  Glad you caught it.  And glad you are watching the asthma.  I had it as a child and it can be a real problem.  Please keep on top of that.

As for the huck bolt, I'm in agreement that now is the time.  Perhaps I can weld a piece to a nut such that the nut cannot turn once it is in there.  Then put it together and torque it.  And then when the engine et al are back in, loosen the bolt, add the loctite, torque to spec, turn the wheels lock/lock a few times, and tighten the bolt to spec again.

But the only way to get the loctite on the threads that go into the nut would be to saturate a Q-Tip with it and reach into the little gap and paint the threads, then loosen the bolt and retighten it.

Better ideas?